What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...

Can't speak for all but in effect yes as we assumed all drives would be the same and were disappointed and surprised to find out otherwise. I think Patrick may be coming by today. We can redo some of this if you like. Of course, why shouldn't you believe the results aren't made up also? The implication in these posts are really over the top. Just try for yourselves. If it's not apparent in your systems then more power to you. I don't think any of us care which drives you use. I don't understand the dealer's advantage or bias here by pointing to this particular difference. We don't sell these things but we do use them. There's also a question whether all of these differences are meaningful musically and some are and others quite minor and not worth sweating. Heck, you guys are all over streaming over CDs. Dig outs from CDPs are often bit perfect. I've seen error reports on drives. Many are very good. Nice part of all these drives is that a file transferred about does not change regardless of which drive it's in. You can move them about and they'll always sound the same in the same drive.

As many here know, one of my partners at ProMusica does a lot of the Naim catalog and all of this was experimented with long before it came up here. Not the rip stuff but the drive, transfer, and encoding stuff on a professional level and for no comercial advantage other than trying to make better files. Fortunately, it's very easy to get the files to Naim intact in a variety of formats but a bit more difficult to get them at their best in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by js:

take off the blinders and at least approach this with an open mind.

Good advice. Open minds don't grow on trees, not in this forum, anyway.

Bro

quote:

Originally posted by js:
The implication in these posts are really over the top. Just try for yourselves. If it's not apparent in your systems then more power to you. I don't think any of us care which drives you use. I don't understand the dealer's advantage or bias here by pointing to this particular difference.

I really don't see that asking for a bit of evidence where claims are made is "over the top". For example, establishing that a lossless rip is not actually lossless, would be of considerable legal interest.

Pure faith may be enough for some, of course. But I certainly don't see the onus being on folk to prove negatives. You make claims, back them up. Trying to create an atmosphere of "you don't hear a difference - you are not one of us" doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid.

Are you really suggesting there is no commercial interest in trying to convince people that more expensive solutions to ripping and storage carry some sonic benefit?

Joe

Who said they weren't actually lossless? No one asked for faith. Try it yourself. You don't need to be in a click. Observations were given and the barer was attacked. Give your own observations and compare notes but don't dismiss out of hand, imply ulterior motives, incompetence or require scentific proof. That's the over the top bit. Prove to me that your last 2 sets of speaker wires sounded different on and on. The rest is great.

With the amount of distortion and phase shift almost every speaker has and in a reflective environment, how do we hear the difference in anything with a minute fraction of measurable issues?...but we do. What's more expensive about different drives that we don't sell? I don't really think all rip customers are necessarily HDX customers. Price of entry is just too high so I also don't feel any minor difference is of critical import for most either. It's why I don't have that definitive super critical audition response. I agree that it's possible to get good rips from DB or EAC and probably XLD though I haven't tried. What's the problem? Would I be happy to hear that my year af ripping into Itunes may have left a bit to be desired? Of course not but I wouldn't attack the messenger. I'd check for myself to see if it's an issue and decide what to do depending on my own results. If there's a difference, the fellow that pointed it out isn't the bad guy. It's the one that said it's all the same. If you don't think a difference, be happy.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Who said they weren't actually lossless? No one asked for faith. Try it yourself. You don't need to be in a click. Observations were given and the barer was attacked. Give your own observations and compare notes but don't dismiss out of hand, imply ulterior motives, incompetence or require scentific proof.

Why not? I thought this was a discussion forum - perhaps I was wrong. Besides, all some of us are doing is asking you to provide some sound technical reasons why different drives sound different, not a wholly unreasonable request, I would have thought. Sadly, all you've done in response is thrown your toys out of the pram.

How disappointing.

I know there is not a red london bus on the moon. If a hifi dealer says it is so I do not need to look in a telescope to establish there is not.

USB sticks do not sound different. End of story.

At the expense of wasting my time repeating myself, is not the fundamental problem that the OP's results do not necessarily support the conclusion arrived at?

If we accept that the various WAV rips were the best possible each respective software could produce - we have to take this on faith since no details or data have been posted - and if we accept that the rips were played from the same drive (or that playing rips from different drives makes no difference - though the OP himself states that different USB sticks affect the sound), what the OP found was that the HDX rip appeared to sound better played back by the HDX through an all Naim system.

Had the OP left things there, who could honestly say the OP was wrong, since who else heard the evidence?

However, the OP chooses to make a very broad statement that this shows the HDX produces "superior" rips. With respect, it does not, it merely shows that the Naim system played back its own rips better - that is a very different and, perhaps, less surprising conclusion (though very reassuring for HDX owners/prospective owners).

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Who said they weren't actually lossless? No one asked for faith. Try it yourself. You don't need to be in a click. Observations were given and the barer was attacked. Give your own observations and compare notes but don't dismiss out of hand, imply ulterior motives, incompetence or require scentific proof.

Why not? I thought this was a discussion forum - perhaps I was wrong. Besides, all some of us are doing is asking you to provide some sound technical reasons why different drives sound different, not a wholly unreasonable request, I would have thought. Sadly, all you've done in response is thrown your toys out of the pram.

How disappointing.

Thanks for contributing.

I should read threads in this room more often. The lines in the opening post about the HDD and USB stick are priceless.

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:

I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.

The ifs, buts, and maybes. There are no technical terms for your findings, other than expectation bias, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Observations were given and the barer was attacked. Give your own observations and compare notes but don't dismiss out of hand, imply ulterior motives, incompetence or require scentific proof.

A suitably apt spelling mistake for the emperor's new clothes.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
I know there is not a red london bus on the moon. If a hifi dealer says it is so I do not need to look in a telescope to establish there is not.

USB sticks do not sound different. End of story.

The plain and simple truth.

As said a couple of times recently by garyi amongst others, computer audio doesn't need any audiophool pretensions. It really doesn't.

quote:

Originally posted by church warden:
At the expense of wasting my time repeating myself, is not the fundamental problem that the OP's results do not necessarily support the conclusion arrived at?

If we accept that the various WAV rips were the best possible each respective software could produce - we have to take this on faith since no details or data have been posted - and if we accept that the rips were played from the same drive (or that playing rips from different drives makes no difference - though the OP himself states that different USB sticks affect the sound), what the OP found was that the HDX rip appeared to sound better played back by the HDX through an all Naim system.

Had the OP left things there, who could honestly say the OP was wrong, since who else heard the evidence?

However, the OP chooses to make a very broad statement that this shows the HDX produces "superior" rips. With respect, it does not, it merely shows that the Naim system played back its own rips better - that is a very different and, perhaps, less surprising conclusion (though very reassuring for HDX owners/prospective owners).

That's quite sensible. When I last compared, it was via a HDX file moved to a PC and played through a mediaplayer, TC and moderate DAC and they were close enough for comfort in that setup. I can't speak for every computer setup but I personally believe that good rips are possible outside of an HDX. So it appears I don't fully agree with anyone here except maybe you.

quote:

Originally posted by Chief Chirpa:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Observations were given and the barer was attacked. Give your own observations and compare notes but don't dismiss out of hand, imply ulterior motives, incompetence or require scentific proof.

A suitably apt spelling mistake for the emperor's new clothes.

All I can say is eeek! There, that should make up for it.

Just remembered its friday the 13th !
should have been april 1st.

I go away for 5 minutes and look what happens!

There's a lot trade posts on this thread which is doing the Naim cause no good what-so-ever. Everyone should just go out and buy the DAC, because you all know you want one!

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Thanks for contributing.

Any time.

quote:

Originally posted by PMR:
I go away for 5 minutes and look what happens!

There's a lot trade posts on this thread which is doing the Naim cause no good what-so-ever. Everyone should just go out and buy the DAC, because you all know you want one!

Peter

I don't think there is an agenda here-if one does one's due diligence, whatever conclusions are arrived at should be borne out by direct experience.

I also understand that there are cultural differences among hi-fi trade and end consumers in both the UK and the US (as well as a lot of baggage from the past as regards being told a priori what combinations of equipment are "best").

That said, as always-do the dem. Don't rely on data-positivist arguments unless they are supported by subjective experience (and independently verified).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by js:
Prove to me that your last 2 sets of speaker wires sounded different on and on. The rest is great.


JS



Bob

Just heard the proto DAC for the first time. Quick surprise from Pat who's in town for other reasons. I'll be buying one for myself. Hooked up my laptop via TC/PSC for a few minutes before I had to leave and got an excellent result using Wavelab ASIO as a player and all our ground, phase and setting ducks in row. MM was clearly less good. I'll play with settings to get more from it when I can and try foobar via kernel. Yes, you can easily still hear differences in buffer settings. Don't know why and I wont debate on theory of this. Same path and kit for both players via ASIO in XP. Haven't tried a true streamer other than an HDX which worked quite well. Wavelab however, is not free, a 1 track at a time program and easily the best we've come across so far. Not really user friendly but encouraging for computers in general. Not having a shootout with the HDX here, just want to understand the DAC and how to optimise it for different sources in the short time we have it. Don't have a MAC with Amarra on hand but I wish I did for comparison. I also hope the Steinberg player rumors pan out. Perhaps Amarra is already there but I have no idea. I have liked the sound of Steinberg software more than Sonics's in the past but that may have very little to do with them as media players. Just nice to know it's being addressed in the after market. When we own a demo DAC, there will be much to try. WASAPI in W7 (7 is a nice OS by the way, fast and easy on resources), different kernel streaming solutions from different players including Itunes and WM which could possibly be good via WASAPI and of course MAC/Amarra. When we have an actual demo, I'll go through the ripper, player, interface itterations again to see if we can find anything to approach Wavelab or the HDX overall etc. Things don't need to be as good as a HDX for success from a PC but the MM player was too far off as configured. Need to hear a TP as source at some point though that may become moot as I understand it's going away like the K8.

We've had it for only a couple of hours from cold so far and have much to try. With master recordings via Wavelab/PC it bettered our fav as a pure DAC. DIG vs analog out from the Nagra VI was much closer but we tended to opt for the relatively cold DAC. This was with a warm 555ps and using a balanced to spdif xformer, bnc to rca adapter and a RCA cable. That's quite a feat and I suspect a BNC cable and one less adapter would swing things further towards the DAC. Without the ps, it was still VG and a powerline did great things. These are preliminary impressions and it will be gone again tomorrow so I don't know how much I'll be able to add in relation to how many here will want to use it. I'll give what I can when I can and suspect it to reveal a bit more about players and rips than I've heard before. IMHO (all the qualitative assessments are obviously just that) poorer sources like the Ipod directly in were better than I've heard in the past via a dig interface(Wadia/psc) and eye opening good overall but differences do still exist in sources. (must be broken, LOL ) Hard to put into terms how it's revealing of differences yet still more musical with a less good source. I know this will get some juices flowing but we can still easily hear the difference in 2 different 6' firewire cables and these would be before the JET clock. I agree it shouldn't be and I have no clue why but there it is. The DAC does seem to deal extremely well with less good sources but it will not fix everything as some imply it should. Haven't tried it with a CDP yet. Character wise, my sense of the unit was one of quiet control yet quite solid dynamically. Floor just seems lower than others with the sources we tried. Oh and if/when you try it, be very mindful of the ground switch. Significant difference when in the correct position. I'm not going to get more specific about the sound or wax on as I suspect as with every proto Naim kit I've tried, the production unit will be better both in voicing and performance though there's clearly not much wrong here to my ear. Those interested can come up with their own conclusions on audition. I'm sure that as with everything, not all will agree. Just thought I'd add my views. I'm also sure some will appreciate this post and others, well, are good at darts.

All are welcome to stop by today for a listen. Sorry for the short notice but we'll have it back in a week or so for a proper dem along with the speakers.

js, very encouraging review.
The re-clocking seems to work fine.
Interesting to here how does it sound against Weiss with Firewire, PWD and Klimax DS.
My concerns are on sonic aspects only.
The digital transports options are more or less clear today.
At least it's quite clear that PC/USB options are numerous today, very sensitive to drivers, software players, USB cables, USB port brands, PC setup, latest OS service packs and VERY unclear in final performance
For reference audio quality I mostly rely on spinner transports and true streamers like HDX and Logitech Transporter.

I believe you'd need an interface like a TC, Lynx card, Weiss INT202 which looks quite promising, or various USB devices that could be accessed by Amarra.

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
js, very encouraging review.
The re-clocking seems to work fine.
Interesting to here how does it sound against Weiss with Firewire, PWD and Klimax DS.
My concerns are on sonic aspects only.
The digital transports options are more or less clear today.
At least it's quite clear that PC/USB options are numerous today, very sensitive to drivers, software players, USB cables, USB port brands, PC setup, latest OS service packs and VERY unclear in final performance
For reference audio quality I mostly rely on spinner transports and true streamers like HDX and Logitech Transporter.

Sounds like it's right up your alley. I don't recall if I meantioned how it clearly improved an HDX. It did as described by others.

I've heard all but the DS in this exact 500 system with Sonus Fabers. The DS may be VG but it can't be used in the way you desire nor compared via dig in. As I said, I'll personally be getting the Naim. 2nd option would be a Nagra which can also be used as a DAC. Of the other pure stand alones, Weiss via 1394 would be next of those mentioned. Everything other than the Naim when hooked up to the dig out from the Nagra VI never came very close to the Nagra's analog out. Of course that should be a huge disadvantage for any outboard DAC compared to a device that can access the next best DAC I've heard as part of it's internal circuitry and until now I actually didn't know if we should have been questioning the dig out. I honestly was surpised. Apparently the dig out and Graham Patten DATS adapter are fine and in fact may allow us to hear some of Ken's latest digital recordings in a clearer light if our initial impressions hold up with more listening. After all, it was less than 2 hours with the it.

The VI these were recorded on is still the best player for these files but both the HDX and PC/Wavelab (with a lot of TLC) were still quite pleasing in a revealing setup. I'll reserve that the HDX may still get better per a gnd check. Sorry, it just dawned on me that it wasn't rechecked when it moved rooms near the end of listening. As you can see, we're setup for this with all the Digital work Ken does and can get through these dems very quickly. We also haven't been using PCs as the primary source and more as a tool. Spent most time listening to files via the Nagra and only 10 minutes or so with my PC in. More time with Kens PC in the loop. With it being Saturaday and other dems going on, I don't know if I'll have an opportunity to play with PC player/settings for those that will want to use it that way. All in good time when we have our own on hand.

OK. Setup has been gone over and with a serious listen, HDX is still the preferred source from and outboard drive. Sorry. Like I said I'll try and get more result from PC in the future. A stick with same file was also not as good. Some of this may change from here to introduction so take all with a grain of salt. A warm up and time for a bit more care has taken things a step further.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
HDX is still the preferred source from and outboard drive. Sorry.

DAC/555PS/HDX=$22K

How did it compare to CDS3/555PS? CD555?


Thanks
Gregg

Sorry but the 555 is down due to using it's supply on the DAC. The CDS3 is out on loan and we're using a lot of HiRes. My take however, is that it will be competitive with anything when completely loaded up with source and supply but I am busy with clients today so I'm not having much time to listen. The ability to play HiRes would personally swing me this direction and it's too early to speak in absolutes regarding it's final form. This one certainlty isn't the most up to date. DAC without supply should have no trouble selling itself regardles of how it gets used but regardless of the desire of many posters, there's no free lunches. At least I haven't found them. I suspect an NS01 plus DAC alone would be a fav at a 4 digit price point and I haven't ruled out getting a very nice result from a computer with more time and effort.

quote:

Of course that should be a huge disadvantage for any outboard DAC compared to a device that can access the next best DAC I've heard as part of it's internal circuitry and until now I actually didn't know if we should have been questioning the dig out.

js, so which one is the first best in your hierarchy?