What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...

Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009

I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.

As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.

Our roadshow kit was as follows:

CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's

Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.

Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.

Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.

Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.

The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).

I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.

What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.

The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by js
The one we're auditoning Winkerand I will be purchasing for myself. I'm thinking that in the current configuration, the the Nagra VI analog vs dig to the DAC is closer to a wash but different. As just DACs, there's no comparison so perhaps the Nagra DIG out could be better or it could be something else. As I said, the best sound overall with any file today is HDX/DAC/PS. This really shouldn't be an issue for people. There's good and better in every form of audio. Why should this be any different but it appears there's a great desire for that to be the case. As long as it gives the most bang for your buck regardless of what that amount is should be the only concern. Not absolutes unless the absolute best is all that will do and your prepared to do whatever it takes to aquire it.
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by DHT
So the 'best' source , is an HDX/Naim DAC and Power supply total cost $22k,you must have a very low opinion of your customers intelligence JS,although I can see how that would be best for you!
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by Klout10
quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
So the 'best' source , is an HDX/Naim DAC and Power supply total cost $22k,you must have a very low opinion of your customers intelligence JS,although I can see how that would be best for you!


DHT,
There's no need to be so rude, js is only answering a queastion! This has nothing to do with a low opinion of any customers intelligence!

Regards,
Michel
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by AMA
DHT, sometimes it happens that the best gear cost more than the others ...
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by js
Not to worry, I just got a 1/2 hour alone with it and my laptop/TC. MM is a no go but Foobar was surprisingly good via ASIO. Foobar via kernel was close but not quite there. No one will be disappointed with a bit of care and yes there's a free way to get a VG result.

PC, if you're listening, you were right all along. Smile It's disturbing that these players sound different with the same file and outside the mixer.

DHT you have a low opinion of my intelligence. If was promoting for sales, I would just say it was virtually equally good with anything. DAC sales in that frame of mind would more than compensate HDX's lost. Roll Eyes

p.s. Just tried a moderate Denon BluRay as a source. Surprisingly good when it hasn't been so as a transport in the past.
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by glevethan
JS

I assume when you say MM you are referring to Mac Mini. Are you implying that, so far, you have been unable to get satisfactory results with Apple computers?

Gregg
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
JS

I assume when you say MM you are referring to Mac Mini. Are you implying that, so far, you have been unable to get satisfactory results with Apple computers?

Gregg
Sorry again. Not at all. Media Monkey. Haven't tried anything MAC other than an Ipod touch with great success. Thanks for that. Certainly don't want a misunderstanding. I suspect that Macbook/Amarra will be outstanding as I did finally manage very good results from a PC with a free player program.

And away it goes. Frown
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by james n
quote:
Can you use Amarra in a Mac with the Naim DAC?
I couldnt use it with the Lavry DA-10.


Stu - once you get your Naim DAC give me a call and i can bring the Weiss over to try as an interface between the Mac & Naim Dac. You can then also try Amarra (i've got the full version with key).

James
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Doesn't he mean media monkey?

JS thanks for your thoughts and views, at last someone trying the DAC with computer gear Winker

I was sweating it there for a couple minutes with MM. Wavelab was great but most want playlists and be able to organize the library appearance. MM wasn't doing it sonically for me but fortunately Foobar came through. I'll revisit some other players like J River when we have one full time. May try different ASIO plugins with MM also. I even installed a Winamp Kernel plugin in MM with slightly better results. It may not yet be a lost cause. I played some DB rips via PC and liked them. I wasn't doing rip comparisons etc and think a good result is just that. It doesn't always need to be critiqued or compared to something that isn't in ones future. It obviously should be compared to other considerations but that isn't for proto's either.
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by garyi
I liked it so much, I bought the company!
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by js
Big Grin I wish I could have a $3500 chunk, RIGHT NOW! Unfortunately I'll be low on the list. Customers first.
Posted on: 14 November 2009 by BobF
quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
So the 'best' source , is an HDX/Naim DAC and Power supply total cost $22k,you must have a very low opinion of your customers intelligence JS,although I can see how that would be best for you!


Frown
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by BobF:
quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
So the 'best' source , is an HDX/Naim DAC and Power supply total cost $22k,you must have a very low opinion of your customers intelligence JS,although I can see how that would be best for you!


Frown

No kidding. Best in the shop should be understood and also IMO. I have personally never put an HDX above the CDX2 with 16/44 as a stand alone on these boards which while VG wont increase it's sales in a streamer hungry market. Of course being as good as a CDX2 is not a bad thing either. Smile The DAC changes that, as does high def in general, which should make the earlier statement rather easy to accept other than perhaps against the Nagra but the Naim combo won out. We listen to HiDef via a PC almost every day either transcribing masters or the large vinyl collection. We understand the differences and are not unhappy with computer audio but only one can be best. I didn't expect the combo to beat the self contained Nagra but it clearly did when playing the same file via attached storage. Anyone with a Nagra VI should not be upset about this as they are getting a wonderful sound and I'm sure are also happy to just play it. I'm certain we will have clients that own both and others with a Nagra LB and some HDX combo. The template has changed for the HDX as now the DAC should be the first upgrade and it's dig out ceiling seems almost limitless. Of couse there's always a ceiling but I'd be hard pressed to know where that is currently. Those that already have a PS on their HDX will be quite satisfied to use it on the DAC. Smile

DHT's response wasn't unexpected so shock value was rather low. Roll Eyes More of a giggle really. I'm sure these aren't removed because they quite obviously reflect more on the posters than the targets. Nice to know who's opinions you're reading and how serious to take them. Winker
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by Joe Bibb
There is no monopoly in being predictable. Winker

It's no surprise that you trade guys are full-on about your preference for HDX or converted CDPs as feeds. You kinda would - wouldn't you? Or put another way - it would have been a massive shock if you were to find otherwise. Big Grin

The fun will really start when we have the DAC to hear for ourselves and compare with whatever. Until then, as they say it's all speculation.

Joe
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by DHT
Should so many 'trade' members be allowed on the forum, they have their shops to peddle their wares, I for one am becoming increasingly tired of this twaddle.
We all know what is 'best' for you JS.
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by js
Until yesterday, the best sound in the store came from a Nagra as was clearly stated by myself at the time. In my type of shop almost all products are available for me to sell, not just Naim. No advantage for me to like one over the other. This forum is not commonly followed by my customers. Your idea of the grandeur of these posts is laughable. This is the same sort of grief I got over Itunes and I was using and discussing firewire long before it became what appears be a stutter on your part. How's that Amarra working for you? You're apparently more concerned about where info comes from than it's content. Explain to me again why multiple clocks aren't better than interpolating frequencies again. Brilliant stuff! When cost works for your argument you say Naim wont spend for firewire but their clocking clearly costs more than buying a chip. You say they don't have expertise yet unlike the device you tout, they didn't buy a solution. They made one. You want to talk about predictable and lack of substance in posts. You've pandered some of the most ludicrous ideas I've read here. What have you really contributed other than insults, inuendo and a bit of opinion? Opinion is fine but the rest? Talk about twaddle. Look in the mirror.

All should listen for themselves and decide. Simple concept. All opinions should be taken with a grain of salt for a # of reasons and regardless of source. I believe folks can come to their own conclusions without your wishes of censorship. I give consumers much more credit than you seem willing to.
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by DHT
Do you really not know why multiple clocks aren't a good idea?
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by js
I know why it's good one if done right. Seems to be born out by audition. Big Grin Try it, you'll like it. Weiss themselves don't care for ASRCs.
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by David Dever
quote:
It's no surprise that you trade guys are full-on about your preference for HDX or converted CDPs as feeds. You kinda would - wouldn't you? Or put another way - it would have been a massive shock if you were to find otherwise.


Wouldn't matter–how many "Trade Member" postings occur under nom de plumes (as well as the occasional posters who work for other hi-fi manufacturers)? At least we're honest–and there's a fair bit of restraint involved in making sure that any posted opinions are crafted as such. (Not all posters exercise similar restraint.)

Converted CDPs are relevant from a VFM perspective, as there are a fair bit of these already in the field, Naim or otherwise.

Same phenomenon happens on the Linn Forum, by the way. Get over it–trade folks are hi-fi geeks (music geeks) too, that's how we got into it in the first place.
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
Do you really not know why multiple clocks aren't a good idea?
Careful before you condemn multiple clocks. Check the JET input circuit of your DAC. It uses one very high freq. crystal but to generate multiple clock frequencies. Hmmm. I'll send you the white paper if you like. "These features include
• Flexible master clock rate generation"
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by scottyhammer
Yawn
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by AMA
I judge the posts on the what's written in it. We know the gears JS is playing with and we know the price tags behind them and we see "Trade Member" Karma Title beneath his name.
If I still ask for his opinion this means I do value it for some reasons (actually we had discussion before on some other products with the SAME price tag by the way).
I often chat with my local dealer and we both know how does he make a living -- and it does not make any bad to our passion for hi-fi audio.

We have to face a truth -- in majority of market cases the manufacturers have a very clear understanding of their product value and it's proper price tag. Which means high price for high quality gear.
But we still can choose a brand or a given solution to fit our needs or just to play out of curiosity.

If Trade Members leave forum -- I will most probably leave it too.

And also there is nothing bad in multiple clocks at all unless the original clock falls out of the standard set and incurs ASRC which is rare. And there is nothing bad about ASRC comparing to PLL jitter rejection.
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by likesmusic
It's not quite true that "there is nothing bad in multiple clocks at all".

Only one of them at most is the correct one!
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by garyi
DHT, I agree its become a bit wiffy in here, its nice trade members post to help with technical issues, but that is where it should end.
Posted on: 15 November 2009 by js
quote:
And there is nothing bad about ASRC comparing to PLL jitter rejection.
Agreed and we should leave these things to audition but it's nice to know what's going on. I mentioned the the ASRC as dreaded because both devices in question try to avoid them via multiple clock frequencies. I warm to the idea of symmetry but there's guys that know more about this than I do that have no issue with ASRCs. There's always the reliable audition to set things straight and is all a non engineer(actually them too Winker) should ultimately rely on. It's also why discussing too much of this becomes that yawn.