What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...
Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009
I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.
As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.
Our roadshow kit was as follows:
CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's
Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.
Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.
Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.
Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.
The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).
I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.
What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.
The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.
Our roadshow kit was as follows:
CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's
Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.
Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.
Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.
Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.
The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).
I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.
What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.
The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
I know you can use it with the Weiss DAC as a few friends of mine have them.
Will see how it goes ,I have sold the Lavry after a years very good use.
On Dr Peters list for a Naim DAC .
Stu
Will see how it goes ,I have sold the Lavry after a years very good use.
On Dr Peters list for a Naim DAC .
Stu
Sounds like it's right up your alley. I don't recall if I meantioned how it clearly improved an HDX. It did as described by others.quote:Originally posted by AMA:
js, very encouraging review.
The re-clocking seems to work fine.
Interesting to here how does it sound against Weiss with Firewire, PWD and Klimax DS.
My concerns are on sonic aspects only.
The digital transports options are more or less clear today.
At least it's quite clear that PC/USB options are numerous today, very sensitive to drivers, software players, USB cables, USB port brands, PC setup, latest OS service packs and VERY unclear in final performance
For reference audio quality I mostly rely on spinner transports and true streamers like HDX and Logitech Transporter.
I've heard all but the DS in this exact 500 system with Sonus Fabers. The DS may be VG but it can't be used in the way you desire nor compared via dig in. As I said, I'll personally be getting the Naim. 2nd option would be a Nagra which can also be used as a DAC. Of the other pure stand alones, Weiss via 1394 would be next of those mentioned. Everything other than the Naim when hooked up to the dig out from the Nagra VI never came very close to the Nagra's analog out. Of course that should be a huge disadvantage for any outboard DAC compared to a device that can access the next best DAC I've heard as part of it's internal circuitry and until now I actually didn't know if we should have been questioning the dig out. I honestly was surpised. Apparently the dig out and Graham Patten DATS adapter are fine and in fact may allow us to hear some of Ken's latest digital recordings in a clearer light if our initial impressions hold up with more listening.
After all, it was less than 2 hours with the it.The VI these were recorded on is still the best player for these files but both the HDX and PC/Wavelab (with a lot of TLC) were still quite pleasing in a revealing setup. I'll reserve that the HDX may still get better per a gnd check. Sorry, it just dawned on me that it wasn't rechecked when it moved rooms near the end of listening. As you can see, we're setup for this with all the Digital work Ken does and can get through these dems very quickly. We also haven't been using PCs as the primary source and more as a tool. Spent most time listening to files via the Nagra and only 10 minutes or so with my PC in. More time with Kens PC in the loop. With it being Saturaday and other dems going on, I don't know if I'll have an opportunity to play with PC player/settings for those that will want to use it that way. All in good time when we have our own on hand.
quote:Originally posted by js:
HDX is still the preferred source from and outboard drive. Sorry.
DAC/555PS/HDX=$22K
How did it compare to CDS3/555PS? CD555?
Thanks
Gregg
The one we're auditoning and I will be purchasing for myself. I'm thinking that in the current configuration, the the Nagra VI analog vs dig to the DAC is closer to a wash but different. As just DACs, there's no comparison so perhaps the Nagra DIG out could be better or it could be something else. As I said, the best sound overall with any file today is HDX/DAC/PS. This really shouldn't be an issue for people. There's good and better in every form of audio. Why should this be any different but it appears there's a great desire for that to be the case. As long as it gives the most bang for your buck regardless of what that amount is should be the only concern. Not absolutes unless the absolute best is all that will do and your prepared to do whatever it takes to aquire it.
and I will be purchasing for myself. I'm thinking that in the current configuration, the the Nagra VI analog vs dig to the DAC is closer to a wash but different. As just DACs, there's no comparison so perhaps the Nagra DIG out could be better or it could be something else. As I said, the best sound overall with any file today is HDX/DAC/PS. This really shouldn't be an issue for people. There's good and better in every form of audio. Why should this be any different but it appears there's a great desire for that to be the case. As long as it gives the most bang for your buck regardless of what that amount is should be the only concern. Not absolutes unless the absolute best is all that will do and your prepared to do whatever it takes to aquire it.Not to worry, I just got a 1/2 hour alone with it and my laptop/TC. MM is a no go but Foobar was surprisingly good via ASIO. Foobar via kernel was close but not quite there. No one will be disappointed with a bit of care and yes there's a free way to get a VG result.
PC, if you're listening, you were right all along. It's disturbing that these players sound different with the same file and outside the mixer.
DHT you have a low opinion of my intelligence. If was promoting for sales, I would just say it was virtually equally good with anything. DAC sales in that frame of mind would more than compensate HDX's lost.
p.s. Just tried a moderate Denon BluRay as a source. Surprisingly good when it hasn't been so as a transport in the past.
PC, if you're listening, you were right all along.
It's disturbing that these players sound different with the same file and outside the mixer.DHT you have a low opinion of my intelligence. If was promoting for sales, I would just say it was virtually equally good with anything. DAC sales in that frame of mind would more than compensate HDX's lost.
p.s. Just tried a moderate Denon BluRay as a source. Surprisingly good when it hasn't been so as a transport in the past.
Sorry again. Not at all. Media Monkey. Haven't tried anything MAC other than an Ipod touch with great success. Thanks for that. Certainly don't want a misunderstanding. I suspect that Macbook/Amarra will be outstanding as I did finally manage very good results from a PC with a free player program.quote:Originally posted by glevethan:
JS
I assume when you say MM you are referring to Mac Mini. Are you implying that, so far, you have been unable to get satisfactory results with Apple computers?
Gregg
And away it goes.
quote:Originally posted by AllenB:
Doesn't he mean media monkey?
JS thanks for your thoughts and views, at last someone trying the DAC with computer gear
I was sweating it there for a couple minutes with MM. Wavelab was great but most want playlists and be able to organize the library appearance. MM wasn't doing it sonically for me but fortunately Foobar came through. I'll revisit some other players like J River when we have one full time. May try different ASIO plugins with MM also. I even installed a Winamp Kernel plugin in MM with slightly better results. It may not yet be a lost cause. I played some DB rips via PC and liked them. I wasn't doing rip comparisons etc and think a good result is just that. It doesn't always need to be critiqued or compared to something that isn't in ones future. It obviously should be compared to other considerations but that isn't for proto's either.
I wish I could have a $3500 chunk, RIGHT NOW! Unfortunately I'll be low on the list. Customers first.quote:Originally posted by DHT:
So the 'best' source , is an HDX/Naim DAC and Power supply total cost $22k,you must have a very low opinion of your customers intelligence JS,although I can see how that would be best for you!
quote:Originally posted by BobF:quote:Originally posted by DHT:
So the 'best' source , is an HDX/Naim DAC and Power supply total cost $22k,you must have a very low opinion of your customers intelligence JS,although I can see how that would be best for you!
No kidding. Best in the shop should be understood and also IMO. I have personally never put an HDX above the CDX2 with 16/44 as a stand alone on these boards which while VG wont increase it's sales in a streamer hungry market. Of course being as good as a CDX2 is not a bad thing either.
The DAC changes that, as does high def in general, which should make the earlier statement rather easy to accept other than perhaps against the Nagra but the Naim combo won out. We listen to HiDef via a PC almost every day either transcribing masters or the large vinyl collection. We understand the differences and are not unhappy with computer audio but only one can be best. I didn't expect the combo to beat the self contained Nagra but it clearly did when playing the same file via attached storage. Anyone with a Nagra VI should not be upset about this as they are getting a wonderful sound and I'm sure are also happy to just play it. I'm certain we will have clients that own both and others with a Nagra LB and some HDX combo. The template has changed for the HDX as now the DAC should be the first upgrade and it's dig out ceiling seems almost limitless. Of couse there's always a ceiling but I'd be hard pressed to know where that is currently. Those that already have a PS on their HDX will be quite satisfied to use it on the DAC. DHT's response wasn't unexpected so shock value was rather low.
More of a giggle really. I'm sure these aren't removed because they quite obviously reflect more on the posters than the targets. Nice to know who's opinions you're reading and how serious to take them. There is no monopoly in being predictable.
It's no surprise that you trade guys are full-on about your preference for HDX or converted CDPs as feeds. You kinda would - wouldn't you? Or put another way - it would have been a massive shock if you were to find otherwise.
The fun will really start when we have the DAC to hear for ourselves and compare with whatever. Until then, as they say it's all speculation.
Joe
It's no surprise that you trade guys are full-on about your preference for HDX or converted CDPs as feeds. You kinda would - wouldn't you? Or put another way - it would have been a massive shock if you were to find otherwise.
The fun will really start when we have the DAC to hear for ourselves and compare with whatever. Until then, as they say it's all speculation.
Joe
I know why it's good one if done right. Seems to be born out by audition. Try it, you'll like it. Weiss themselves don't care for ASRCs.
Try it, you'll like it. Weiss themselves don't care for ASRCs.