What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...
Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009
I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.
As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.
Our roadshow kit was as follows:
CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's
Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.
Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.
Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.
Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.
The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).
I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.
What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.
The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.
Our roadshow kit was as follows:
CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's
Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.
Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.
Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.
Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.
The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).
I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.
What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.
The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
I know 
Would you mind if I ask him on CDX2/DAC/XPS vs CDS3/XPS demo which are closely priced combos?
My local dealer does not have any.
Would you mind if I ask him on CDX2/DAC/XPS vs CDS3/XPS demo which are closely priced combos?
My local dealer does not have any.
Right on both counts DHT. 
Foobar/ASIO was still the best of the players in windows XP but with Windows 7 and Amarra/MAC out there I only commennt on as much as I've heard. Problem with Foobar is that I still didn't like the '0' level FLAC version of a file as much as the .wav and Foobar doesn't organize well with wav. Please, leave it to my opinion if you disagree. I know it's bit correct. I'll try more in MAC and W7 via ASAPI in the future. Sonically sdw1XP/.wav/Wavelab/ASIO/TC/PSC is still the best I've got from a computer so far, excellent and something we've been using here for a long time. Foobar is close. I'm very interested to hear Amarra at some point. Posters seem to be interested in PC audio so I thought I'd try to optimize a few players for a listen. MM and Media Center were also tried again. I'm probably just making more enemies by not choosing poster's particular players. I though MM would have been fine as it can operate ASIO and has nice organization but I prefer others. Perhaps that will change with W7 or a bit more effort.
AMA, I won't have a good opinion on hard comparisons until an actual production unit arrives.
Foobar/ASIO was still the best of the players in windows XP but with Windows 7 and Amarra/MAC out there I only commennt on as much as I've heard. Problem with Foobar is that I still didn't like the '0' level FLAC version of a file as much as the .wav and Foobar doesn't organize well with wav. Please, leave it to my opinion if you disagree. I know it's bit correct. I'll try more in MAC and W7 via ASAPI in the future. Sonically sdw1XP/.wav/Wavelab/ASIO/TC/PSC is still the best I've got from a computer so far, excellent and something we've been using here for a long time. Foobar is close. I'm very interested to hear Amarra at some point. Posters seem to be interested in PC audio so I thought I'd try to optimize a few players for a listen. MM and Media Center were also tried again. I'm probably just making more enemies by not choosing poster's particular players. I though MM would have been fine as it can operate ASIO and has nice organization but I prefer others. Perhaps that will change with W7 or a bit more effort.AMA, I won't have a good opinion on hard comparisons until an actual production unit arrives.
Nothing wrong with that. I thought early 82s a bit dark but quite liked the other 2 you mentioned. Of course there was basically 2 versions of the 140s but I kinda like both. Thing is, none of these we've mentioned we're actually bad but perhaps not the value of Naim's other bits from an individual's perspective. It's all relative and we all have our favs and otherwise. It still goes on here now but I personally happen to think that the current electronics line is very solid and with good hierarchy per type. Am I biased? Depends on your definition. I certainly favor the stuff but I think for good reason. You may not. We're both allowed or at least I thought so.quote:Originally posted by Peter Dinh:
Thanks js for your respond. While I have always respect your expert view about music re-production in general, I think you are sometimes too diplomatic to Naim system. But this, I understand. I own lots of Naim stuffs but there are some Naim components that I really dislike such SBLs, NAP 140, NAC 82, for example.
I'm a retailer and sell numerous brands. I choose Naim for myself and seldom bring up other brands on this board. Generally when adding to another thread that a product was mentioned in and I have spoken favorably of others such as Nagra, Quad, Rega, Linn, Elac, ProAc, Sonus Faber, REL and even Weiss etc. depending on the individual piece. It is however a Naim forum after all. I'm fine with some thinking bias. Others will take an alternate view. It says trade under my name so all can consider the source as they deem fit. I don't understand why we need to continue down this path. It's counterproductive to the threads and allows them to get sabotaged of good content. I'm sure it's quite boring to those not involved and some that are.
Trade members with actual opinions are generally driven away rather quickly. We're usually just enthusiasts that have jumped into the deep end. I'll be putting my money where my mouth is on the DAC. I think that's sincere enough.quote:Originally posted by js:Funny part is that MM/ASIO is bit perfect also.quote:Originally posted by ghook2020:
JS -
Did try foobar2000/ASIO. Had the same problem as WASAPI -- no luck with 24/96 flac files.
Just did a little a/b with foobar2000/ASIO and xmplay/WASAPI using 16/44.1 flac. Could not hear any difference. Both sounded very good. Given both are supposed to produce bit-perfect playback, this is not a surprise. (Just a side note: the Transit supports ASIO, so did not have to use ASIO4ALL).
The only minor issue I have with xmplay/WASAPI is with gapless support. Am hearing a very short cutout between tracks on live albums. Gapless support in foobar2000 was perfect.
Hookbeats me.
I forgot to ask. Did you try WMP or Itunes via WASAPI? I suspect they're both pretty good that way. I just configured WMP to play via ASIO in XP. It will also output 24/96 as configured. Don't know the quality yet but I can see that things are working correctly and outputting native on the TC ASIO app. Here's how.
first this: http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/ and read the text file for settings.
Then this for 24/96.
http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/
Once it’s installed, launch the audio decoder configuration and under “Codecs” select “Uncompressed” ànd switch the next collumn to 24-bit integer.
Haven't listened yet but it may be worth a go for those still with XP that want a do everything player with these capabilities. I'll listen to it next time the DAC's on hand or maybe before. I've got a few players ready to roll. I'll also try 0 compression setting Flac files to see if there's a difference from higher settings. Speaking of FLAC. There's also a FLAC switch under the same audio configuration settings as mentioned before. I left it off but you could try it to see if it helps in your setup, that is if these even apply in Vista.
JS -
I do admire your enthusiasm for trying these different software options! Did not spend much time with iTunes or WMP. If and when Apple or MS choose to support FLAC properly (no 3rd-party plug-ins), then I might rethink.
For now, am very happy with the EAC/MM/xmplay combo, but will likely drop xmplay if MM 4.0 proves a winner.
The next big change for me will be in January when Blue Circle ships their "USB Tunnel" (plug-n-play USB-to-Toslink-or-SPDIF converter that supports 24/96). It is a butt ugly device, but the only driver-less alternative to the Bel Canto USB Link I have found. Will also upgrade to a Furutech 1.0m USB and 5.0m Chord Optichord. May even try a 5.0m SPDIF, but the nice ones get a little pricey (and Naim does seem to be steering us towards Toslink for DAC connection).
Hook
quote:This is personal and let your own ears guide you.
js, I will certainly buy DAC on my listening test. It's not the issue. I just have a simple question on how good is the DAC against CDS3 on Red Book because I have no access to CDS3 today for a side-by-side comparison. It's a curiosity issue -- not a an investment guide.
I'm pretty sure that DAC is more resolving that CDX2 otherwise it will not sale for it's money.
But what about a musical presentation - is it closer to CDX2/XPS (bright side) or CDS3/XPS (softer side).
But now I see you don't have it too
Did most listening with supply and it has a high level of performance. No 2 bits of kit are the same so I'd like to leave it as competitive with anything depending on configuration, needs/preferences and source. I've not seen a product that was universally loved or hated so regardless of it's actual goodness it will still come to individual preference.quote:Originally posted by AMA:quote:This is personal and let your own ears guide you.
js, I will certainly buy DAC on my listening test. It's not the issue. I just have a simple question on how good is the DAC against CDS3 on Red Book because I have no access to CDS3 today for a side-by-side comparison. It's a curiosity issue -- not a an investment guide.
I'm pretty sure that DAC is more resolving that CDX2 otherwise it will not sale for it's money.
But what about a musical presentation - is it closer to CDX2/XPS (bright side) or CDS3/XPS (softer side).
But now I see you don't have it too
I'm OK with it as long as we can discuss. No need to agree. We may grow closer in opinion over time. Perhaps not but I'm sure a sit down would do us good regardless of the result. Drinks on me if you're ever in the town. We'll try not to get too blind before some listening.
Here's a picture of my experiments:
Seriously, Windows 7 is now in the home PC and it seems very nice and easy on resources. I avoided Vista in a big way.
Perhaps not but I'm sure a sit down would do us good regardless of the result. Drinks on me if you're ever in the town. We'll try not to get too blind before some listening. Here's a picture of my experiments:
Seriously, Windows 7 is now in the home PC and it seems very nice and easy on resources. I avoided Vista in a big way.