What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...
Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009
I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.
As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.
Our roadshow kit was as follows:
CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's
Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.
Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.
Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.
Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.
The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).
I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.
What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.
The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.
Our roadshow kit was as follows:
CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's
Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.
Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.
Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.
Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.
The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).
I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.
What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.
The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
quote:Originally posted by AMA:
...
Logitech streamers are designed to be driven by PC software (Slim Server). Which means you have to dedicate a PC in your home network to drive your streamers.
...
That's why we want streamers.
Why you would want to have to use dedicated PC Software (Slim Server) to drive your streamer, is beyond me!!
Why not make the media player such, that it can access files systems on its own, NFS, SAMBA, ...
There is no need to have to use Slim Server software to throw your music around a home network! Let each player read its own files it wants to play. Streaming is only usefull when don't have access to the audio source file as when you listen to internet radio.
Develop some (mobile) client software to control the mediaplayer over the LAN and all is running smoothly
.-
aleg
I would still prefer a better CD player to what I was using. It's not about detail as much as musical perspective and boogie factor. With HiDef that changes a bit and allows an even better comparison of players. Aleg, I assume that XX was in a normal mode and not engine 3 upsampling etc. and Foobar was in Exclusive WASAPI. I suspect that better upsampling than what's included in a DAC may help but wouldn't be the best way to use it with the Naim. Try the ASIO in Foobar if appropriate for your card/adapter/DAC. I find Foobar's balance about right so XX being leaner concerns me a bit but I don't get too caught up in balance if other things aren't along for the ride and I haven't heard Foobar via WASAPI.quote:Originally posted by ghook2020:quote:Originally posted by Aleg:quote:Originally posted by js:
I've never cared for ASIO4all. Try kernel streaming, WASAPI exclusive or the true Foobar Asio plugin. Not saying that XX won't still be better but I think that comparison wasn't entirely fair. I probably won't try it until I move away from XP in the laptop if ever. I plan on getting one of the Naim front ends and was just doing this for the board. Let us know if you try it again.
I just tried it again now against Foobar with WASAPI-plugin. While indeed better then ASIO4ALL, I still would say the XXHighEnd has an even greater transparancy.
The sound gets a bit cleaner and 'thinner' while keeping a good resonance, while WASAPI remains a bit thicker, warmer sound.
I think I'll need to listen somewhat more to get a true preference.
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aleg
Aleg & JS -
Curious what you guys use as a reference for judging computer software player sonic quality.
After listening to so many different software players, digital converters, cables, etc., was wondering if you had, for example, a stable CD player setup that you measure against.
Personally not a big fan of blind testing. I do not think most people listen to music the same way under pressure (it is such a "gotta be analytical and objective" situation). But still, at a minimum, I am assuming you guys are making an attempt to set volume levels reasonably close. I know my favorite test subject (i.e., wife of 30 years) is easily fooled into picking a over b if a has even a slightly higher volume level.
Thanks again!
Hook
Ferenc mentioned a really cool device that uses it's own driver to connect directly to foobar and maybe some others and can do 24/192.
quote:Originally posted by js:
...
Aleg, I assume that XX was in a normal mode and not engine 3 upsampling etc. and Foobar was in Exclusive WASAPI.
JS
XXHighEnd was in Engine#3 and tested with and without Double and Quad upsampling using the Arc Prediction algorithm. Foobar was used with WASAPI Exclusive mode.
As I said, I have to make up my mind what I prefer, the cleaner, leaner sound of XXHighEnd or the Foobar-WASAPI wit a thicker and somewhat warmer sound. But the difference was noticable.
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aleg
try em and see. 
My understanding is that the Hiface uses an output tranformer to decouple which is a sure thing with TOS and everything computer has a driver. It either uses a windows driver or it's own. I don't care which unless I need to use it some way a particular driver wont allow.
My understanding is that the Hiface uses an output tranformer to decouple which is a sure thing with TOS and everything computer has a driver. It either uses a windows driver or it's own. I don't care which unless I need to use it some way a particular driver wont allow.
About $1200 and the V control will be via 32 bit float, similar to a TC. It will however, have a linear supply and none of the mixer or output/DAC addins to take away from it's one purpose. Good things in my book.
and none of the mixer or output/DAC addins to take away from it's one purpose. Good things in my book.quote:Originally posted by js:
try em and see.
My understanding is that the Hiface uses an output tranformer to decouple which is a sure thing with TOS and everything computer has a driver. It either uses a windows driver or it's own. I don't care which unless I need to use it some way a particular driver wont allow.
JS -
I disagree with you on this minor point. I believe "driverless" is better.
Native drivers are much less likely to be broken on OS upgrade. Haven't you ever upgraded Windows and found that a 3rd-party device didn't work properly anymore? Haven't you ever had to wait months for a 3rd-party manufacturer to update their driver?
The use of a proprietary driver is my one gripe with the Transmit. Saw very consistant behavior amongst the software players when connecting directly from my computer's USB to my V-DAC. Since introducing the Transit, have seen all sorts of strange errors, and they have varied amongst the different software players.
Have not heard about any features that a native USB driver is lacking. It seems to work well for Bel Canto (from what I've read anyway). Am hoping it works well for Blue Circle as well.
Like you, I do not like the term "driverless". Wish the word had never come into popular use because, as you say, all devices have drivers.
Hook
quote:I had noticed, but found it a bit contradictory to your exclamation of "That's why we want streamers."
Aleg, let me put my thoughts in a better way
When I mean a true streamer I mean a device which has a built-in software to communicate with external NAS and push out a low jitter bitstream to S/PDIF. Logitech is not a true streamer in that sense as it requires a dedicated PC with dedicated software to be hooked up on the local network which I don't like. HDX is a true streamer but is excessive in having a built-in HDD and ripping machine. Linn DS and PS Audio PWD/Bridge are also true streamers except that both only have analogue output and don't offer S/PDIF to pair with external DAC.
I do believe that there is a market demand for the CHEAP true streamers: like Logitech SB3 but with a built-in software.
I want to pair it with future Naim DAC and use remote to browse music archives on my NAS drive without messing up with my laptop.
That's why I want a streamer
quote:know there are doubting thomas's who have not tried it and beleive there is no difference - but to me the results of writing the same files to different brands of CDR's and being able to hear the difference in playback on a CD Player (which seems to be a widely held result) is no different - it should all still be 1's and zero's - shouldn't it ;-)
I can understand it with CDR's - its a totally different electromechanical process to extract the data off the CD.
Memory sticks - were both formatted the same - any other files on them. The different size sticks, does this mean more processor overhead when reading them - leading to more power supply loading, EMI within the player ?
Or is Naim about to introduce its own take on the Memory stick and the paranoia levels need raising
James
quote:Originally posted by AMA:quote:I had noticed, but found it a bit contradictory to your exclamation of "That's why we want streamers."
Aleg, let me put my thoughts in a better way
When I mean a true streamer I mean a device which has a built-in software to communicate with external NAS and push out a low jitter bitstream to S/PDIF. Logitech is not a true streamer in that sense as it requires a dedicated PC with dedicated software to be hooked up on the local network which I don't like. HDX is a true streamer but is excessive in having a built-in HDD and ripping machine. Linn DS and PS Audio PWD/Bridge are also true streamers except that both only have analogue output and don't offer S/PDIF to pair with external DAC.
I do believe that there is a market demand for the CHEAP true streamers: like Logitech SB3 but with a built-in software.
I want to pair it with future Naim DAC and use remote to browse music archives on my NAS drive without messing up with my laptop.
That's why I want a streamer
Ah, I can see clearly now
I support you on this.
Yes, we want a true Naim-streamer!!!
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aleg
quote:Originally posted by Eloise:
By the way - what do you think a NAS is if not a "dedicated PC with dedicated software to be hooked up on the local network". Linn DS and PS Audio PWD with Bridge both require "dedicated" software in the form of a UPnP server.
Eloise
That's a shame. I would like a streamer to directly access a NAS used as a fileserver, not with extra software like UPnP, DLNA, SlimServer or whatever running.
quote:Originally posted by Eloise:
On a completely different note ... has anyone tried using MPD on a Linux system? So far I'm getting quite good results in my trials though do have an issue with MetaData.
Eloise
I run mpd about 10 hours a day
from my PCH (a Linux system).For a client I use Minion or mPod or iPodMp.
What kind of problem do you have with MetaData?
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aleg
quote:Originally posted by Aleg:quote:Originally posted by Eloise:
On a completely different note ... has anyone tried using MPD on a Linux system? So far I'm getting quite good results in my trials though do have an issue with MetaData.
Eloise
I run mpd about 10 hours a day
For a client I use Minion or mPod or iPodMp.
What kind of problem do you have with MetaData?
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aleg
Instead of getting artist names (using AAC files to test) I get the "composer" field instead of the "Artist" field - files were created in iTunes. I need to copy some AIFF and ALAC files across to the drive to test these I guess.
I'd actually say that an MPD setup running on a fanless motherboard would be very close to your desire of a "streamer" which uses FileSharing rather than UPnP or similar - certainly without heading in the direction of a HDX or similar. MPD is looking very hopeful for me as a good setup. Currently it's running on an laptop for test purposes - but if I can get somewhere was thinking of looking at a Mini-ITX Atom board or similar.
quote:By the way - what do you think a NAS is if not a "dedicated PC with dedicated software to be hooked up on the local network". Linn DS and PS Audio PWD with Bridge both require "dedicated" software in the form of a UPnP server. It's no different from the Squeezebox needing SqueezeCenter (which can be run on a lot of "off the shelf" NAS devices (from QNAP and Thecus as starters).
Eloise, very true. All UPnP NAS drives are actually dedicated linux machines.
Let me re-phrase my post above as: I want to avoid dedicating a 2nd PC above the one which is a NAS
The only excuse I have for Logitech to require a second PC with SlimServer is a sarcastically low price with extremely high quality output bitstream. This why Transporter and SB3 is my current choice.
Meanwhile I'm still waiting for a true streamer to come on audiophile market at affordable price. If Naim will do it then I can use the same remote for streamer and volume control