Big,Big Mistake... (headbanging against the wall)

Too bad to hear this. I know SF sounds very good with Naim, but with the smaller speakers (e.g. Signum) I have experienced the same as you mention. Breathtaking on simple music, but struggling when it gets tough. Perhaps you could try a 92+90/3? I wouldn't sell the SF's too soon (as you are looking for ProAcs). My advice would be to give the SF's some time and do try another amplifier (not buy, but try!!!!!).

Good luck! Bas

But to be honest, I don't like the looks and dimensions of the Intro's.
Personally I like small standmounters better.

I also guess that IF I would return my SF's I can only buy something else in the same store.
(I don't think I'd just get my money back)

btw:I tried different cable's but the flabby bass keeps coming back.

Greetings,
Alco

Gr. Bas

No offense,Bas But isn't this more a matter of taste ?
I know some people who like the looks of the Kan's and I think they look kinda cheap.
I even know people who don't like the looks of Sonus Faber speakers,so...

and to me it's also the music that counts most,but if I hate the looks and/or dimension of a speaker, it won't find a place in my room (for long),no matter how good it sounds.

Greetings,
Alco

[This message was edited by Alco on SUNDAY 07 April 2002 at 12:40.]

I understand what you mean, but I just wish that you would see the Intro's and listen to them. I so think you'd love them. Okay, I understand some prefer the SF's looks (my GF doesn't), but it's always what you describe you're looking for, the Intro's deliver...

Well, I'm going to the sports field right now, too good weather to stay inside!

Groeten! Bas

please do not try to patch up your wrongdoings by inflicting Proacs on your Nait. I think its time you found a 72/140, then add a hicap if you want to throw difficult loads at it. Good as the Nait 2 is, it does have limits.

As for cheap looks? Mate, you were responsible for that vinyl wrap, right?

Don't get me wrong - I really do sympathise. But aside throwing out the baby with the bathwater, short of the KanII's being totally unsuitable for your room - wouldn't the source, and then the pre/power have been a better place to start? If you pick the Proacs, I would predict you'll start having to shape the future of the system to suit them. be vigilant!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

PS - Intros would be a good match. Royd Sintras might be worth a try, but not exactly Kan-eaters. nor indeed would Royd minstrels, but they will work rather well on a Nait.

Firstly, I think you deserve considerable credit for coming on here and admitting the problem, but we can all learn a lesson from it -- if you downgrade your amp, your system won't sound as good, no matter what speakers you use. Silmilarly, if you downgrade your source, the same thing happens, no matter what amp/speakers combination is connected.

Certainly what comes over on this forum time and time again over the years, is that if you have a pair of Kans in a system you can live with, money is best spent further up the chain -- at least until you get to NAP250 level, when you are most likely to hear what the Kans were originally designed to do.

Also, isn't it more likely that your Nait "required" the NACA5, rather than the Kans? Logically, you would use Cyrus' recommended cable with the Cyrus amp -- and if they don't have one, that opens up a whole new can of worms...

On a loosely related note, our walk up to the pub takes us past a lot of other people's living room windows, and in the majority of cases one can clearly see some sort of "stacking midi" system on a shelf somewhere in the room. Every single one of these is arranged with both left and right speakers either side of the rest of the kit, all on the same shelf.

Does this not suggest that the majority of the population doesn't even care about stereo -- they just want to be able to bang on a CD without fretting about it, and without the hardware taking over the room? It therefore occurs to me that most people's native mental attitude is extremely "flat earth", and it is only when they expose themselves to the entire mainstream hi-fi marketing machine that they start to worry about "shimmering highs", "earth-shaking lows, "slam", "soundstage", "imaging" and all the rest of the crap that culminates in being led to part with 300 quid for a metre of terminated cable.

Or not! Don't know if I'm convinced about this myself -- what do you lot think?

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

to Rico: I tried a 72/140 on my own Kan's some time ago. Imho, it was a bit of a dissapointment.
The mids became a little more open, but the low-end didn't bacame faster/tighter. (which I did expect) So, imo the 72/140 wasn't worth the extra cash compared to the Nait-2.

quote:

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As for cheap looks? Mate, you were responsible for that vinyl wrap, right ?

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to Vuk's son:
I can't get the Kan's back, because I sold them.
(to a guy with a Denon system,for god's sake ) ...poor little Kannie's

Problem is,I don't wanna try different amps to go along with the SF's.
So, As I don't think the store will simply take back my SF's and refund my money, I guess I'll have to buy some other speakers at the store.
That only leaves me with the Proac Tablette's or some s/h (mint) MA Studio-2SE's.
I don't wanna match it with the Cyrus,but I'm curious how the Tablette 50's sound on a Nait-2.
(I thought Tony Lonorgan had some before he got into Kan's)

(as it is more easy for me to swap the Cyrus 3 for a Nait-2, than getting my money back for the SF's)

Greetings,
Alco

[This message was edited by Alco on SUNDAY 07 April 2002 at 13:12.]

[This message was edited by Alco on SUNDAY 07 April 2002 at 13:15.]

quote:

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On a loosely related note, our walk up to the pub takes us past a lot of other people's living room windows, and in the majority of cases one can clearly see some sort of "stacking midi" system on a shelf somewhere in the room.

---

What are you doing looking in my window?

(Damn, the secret is out now....)

Paul

quote:

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That only leaves me with the Proac Tablette's or some s/h (mint) MA Studio-2SE's. I don't wanna match it with the Cyrus,but I'm curious how the Tablette 50's sound on a Nait-2. (I thought Tony Lonorgan had some before he got into Kan's)

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Long story, but here’s a edited version:

I happily ran a pair of Kan IIs for best part of 10 years on the end of a Xerxes / 62 / Hi / 140. This was an excellent system, it played music, and what it didn’t do didn’t really matter to me. I ran this system happily until I moved down to London about seven years ago. At this point I was earning a far better wage than usual, so I decided to chase the dream of Isobariks, and as the Xerxes was sagging a bit I landed a LP12 / Ittok. My system was now the classic old school flat earth LP12 / Ittok / 32.5 / Hicap / 135 / Isobariks.

This system sounded pretty good, but I could never quite tame the bottom end, and it was causing issues with my neighbours as Briks really do stick some serious energy back into their surroundings. I came to the conclusion that much as I liked them the Briks must go. I decided on landing a high quality mini-monitor – either a pair of Tablette 50 Signatures or AE1 Mk2s, whichever came up first in Loot. I got the ProAcs. The key error I made was selling my Kan IIs, so the only comparison I did was against the Isobariks, not against another small speaker.

The Tablette 50 Sigs are not a bad speaker, I would go as far as saying that if your musical taste is mainly comprised of jazz, classical, or possibly quite lightweight pop then they are pretty competent. These speakers don’t rock, they don’t give the appropriate edge to a fuzzed up guitar etc. The top end is very gentle and smooth, it almost has a valve like texture, and really gives an impression of openness. As things get deeper things get woollier, the bottom end is quite full and rounded, but can hint at one-noteness now and again. The ports at the back are to my ears quite obvious sonically. They need a very high quality high mass stand otherwise they sound really stodgy – I used the recommended Target R1s.

Anyway I lived with the Tab 50 Sigs for the best part of a year in London, then chose to relocate back up north. The room I moved into was more suitable for a wall proximity speaker (the Tabs need to be miles from anything), I just could not get the bloody things not to boom. Whatever I did they sounded like utter crap in this room, so I landed a pair of Kans from Loot as an experiment. The Kans bloody killed the ProAcs, completely destroyed them. I was really shocked. They were bigger, more open, faster, radically more tuneful and obviously timed like a bastard. They were FUN. It was like coming home! I could not believe what I had been missing through the ProAcs.

Anyway if I were in your shoes I would plead to get your Nait 2 back – you need to spend a stupid amount more to get a better amp. As for speakers if you really can’t live with Kans then I would recommend having a seriously good listen to some Neats. I have tried the Mystiques and Petites on the end of my system (still P9 / MC25FL / Microgroove / CDX / Nait 2 / Kan 2) and they both work fine. I preferred the Mystique as they seemed to interface with my room incredibly well, and I plan to buy a pair if I can ever find a bloody job to pay for them. (anyone need a Network / IT manager?). If you really want a stand mount then the cheaper Critique is probably well worth a look though I have not heard them. Royds would also be contenders as would the Linn Katan by all accounts.

Oh, to stick my nose in on your other thread: Avoid Kimber speaker cable at all costs, it may sound pretty but it really doesn’t play music.

Tony.

quote:

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The mids became a little more open, but the low-end didn't bacame faster/tighter. (which I did expect) So, imo the 72/140 wasn't worth the extra cash compared to the Nait-2.

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Indeed, generally. It's the hiCap that really takes it a long way further. If that's the case, the Nait is the amp for you. And as Tony metions, fed a diet of excellent source, the nait is competent enough to do a good job driving Kans.

Do let us know how you get on Alco, we all hope you'll be grinning and tapping your feet again soon.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I think my Naim dealer still has one or more s/h Nait-2's for a reasonable price.
At least his site www.rinsmahifi.nl
does mention a s/h Nait-2 (probably old-style and more s/h Naim stuff)
Knowing the guy he rarely updates his site though...
So, I guess I can get me a Nait-2 back, and it shouldn't be too hard to sell my Cyrus 3 (mint) wihtout much loss.

I could ask the other dealer, where I got the SF from,if he will take back the SF 'Concertino's, and pay me back but I'm afraid he won't. He ordered 'em for me personally.
So if he would take 'em back,he can't really sell them for new,eh. (probably like ex-demo)

I could ask him to take them back,for a little less the price I paid for 'em.
This way, I still lose some money,which is a pity,but on the other hand...

This leaves me with about 1200,- euro which is more than enough to check out some other speakers at my Naim dealer.
(I can already see his "oh,my god, you didn't,...did ya'?" face,when I tell him my story)

The site of my Naim dealer,mentioned above,also tells he he still has 1 pair of IBL's and Kan-1's!

Can anybody tell me the difference between a Kan-1 and Kan-II on a Nait-2 ?

thanx,Y'all for not banning me to a round-earth forum

I tried the SF with a 62/90 combo and they were very good indeed. Get the Nait back! Put NACA5 cable in, altough I had good results with Cable Talk 'Garden Hose' also. I am not so hung up about the cable, the amp is more important.

The SF's are excellent little speakers that really are enjoyable to listen to.

Another thought, does the Nait take a HICAP or SNAPS, better than a cable change!

Good luck,

Milan

Milan

According to his site, your dealer also has a pair of IBLs, 773 EUR. Might be worth hearing if he still has them.

quote:

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Which stands do you use under the Signums Alco??

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Hi Richard, I don't have SF Signums!
I have the SF "Concertino's" on the adjustable SF stands.

I don't wanna spend lots of money (again) to get the best out of the SF's.

Greetings,
Alco

How fab Royd loudspeakers are. Joe Ackroyd is a guru.
People put 'em down because they're too cheap

Grab some Minstrels...set them up properly...then try 72/140 again.

The Signums are very much better speakers all-round, but if Kans are your thing you might just not like the more even-handed way they approach things.

I'd take Signums over Kans every single time - they are a superb speaker, but as someone mentioned they are demanding and would require a very high standard of system to get the best out of them.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Read about your problem and feeling sorry for you.However there may be some light in the darkness.If you could trade the sonus fabers back in for cash then you'll be able to buy a nac92/nap90 + Naim IBL's.They are currently on sale for 1360euro on www.hifi.nl in 2e hands.
Maybe that's the way to go.And as Richard already stated:the Cyrus amp is just not good enough to get the best out of the Sonus Fabers.
Hope this helps.

Regards,Rob.

You have had lots of advice here. Some of it about speakers you do not even own! I like the SF Concertino's a lot. They are great for the money, in both looks and performance. Try to get the NAIT especially if you can PX your Cyrus. Put the rest down to bad experience.

Then listen and be happy.

Regards

Milan

Sorry to read you are not quite happy with your new purchase. I hope you didn't buy your equipment at that pitfall shop at Weerdinge. They sell an audio image, not good sound. If so, I hope you can trade your SF speakers for a MC5 They are very good sounding and looking and are available in various colours, wood veneer and finishes including high gloss piano. They have a high sensivity and would also make a nice combination with the Nait
Other options for small speakers are IMHO :
Reference 3A da Capo
Diapason prelude
Ensemble (also in Weerdinge)
Avalanche Audio (www.avalanche-audio.com)
Go for a high sensivity or an easy-load design. It will make your future amplifier choice, as soon as you want to upgrade again, much easier.

Theo

ehhh.....yep, In fact I did buy the Sonus Faber's at the HiFi-studio in Weerdinge. It's quite a respected and exclusive store.
(Krell,Wilson,etc)
I do like it, and Ferry the only salesman in this store, is a nice bloke, who 's always willing to help,when hifi-problems show up.
but in the end...I guess 'm just more a flat-earth kinda guy!

I'll call him asap to ask if I can return my SF's.
(sure hope so,since they were especially ordered)

btw:I just called the most flat-earth HiFi-dealer in Holland.(and luckily within 40 minnutes driving from my place )

I told him my story. He smiled a bit and said:"You sure do know how to get yourself in trouble eh. Well, let's say it's an good lesson."

but... he still had a s/h Nait-2 on the shelf.
In fact, he has an old-style and a new-style Nait.
(He slightly prefers the old-style,though the new-style would match better with my CDX again)
He also said:"The only positive side of your story is that you made a guy happy again,who also made the same mistake years ago. He earns the Nait-2.)

He also has a pair of Kan-1's for about 225,- UKP.
But if I can bring back my SF's and find some time,I'd also like to check some IBL's and/or some Royd's.

Jee,what a bummer that it takes this much trouble again to get back were I was for 30 days ago...

O,well. it's a good lesson (too bad it's gonna cost again, though I guess I can sell my Cyrus III quite quick/easily.)

So, if thing are going well, I'm one happy fella again after this weekend.

I'll let ya know what happened.

Regards,
Alco

If you do find IBLs suit you, or that Kan I's really rock your world, be sure to take your time. Same for listening to Nait 2.0 and Nait 2.1. And be sure to prepare a review or two for the forum!

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio