Naim vs Weiss -- VFM

Posted by: AMA on 24 September 2010

I currently run NAS/PC/Foobar/WASAPI through Hiface (0.5 K$) + nDAC (3.5 K$), XPS (5 K$), Headline + NAPSC (1 K$) = totally 10 K$.
Weiss DAC202 sells at 6.5 K$ and highly acclaimed in direct nDAC vs DAC202 tests.
Naim route comprises 4 boxes which occupy three shelves, need three powerlines, one DC1 cable and one USB cable.

Weiss route is one box, occupies half of a shelf, needs only one powerline and one Firewire cable.

In fact I plan to upgrade Hiface to Evo or INT202 which will add one or two boxes, steal at least half of the shelf and require another powerline -- and make nDAC-based solution even more expensive and cumbersome.

I do understand they offer different sound presentation -- but Weiss has a clear practical edge over the Naim solution. So -- does Weiss sound THAT bad?

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by JYOW

Actually that is one thing you have to consider. Weiss is a small company without the distribution power of the big boys. Service will be very difficult and likely involve shipping back and forth.

The flip side is you will have personal attention with Daniel Weiss and his Asian rep.

For sure Naim is safe. I have never had a hardware failure with Naim gears in 20 years. Neither have I with Weiss gear, but they are much newer.

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by AMA

JYOW, do you know if DAC202 uses a linear PS?
Is it standard design or super-reg?

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by Lee Henley

Interesting thread, Im currently demoing a nDac at home, got in the house on saturday thanks to Robin at music matters for the quick loan. I must admit the ndac is quite a nice piece of kit and can really make the XS go alot louder than the dacmagic but after all it is almost 10x the cost of the DM, its a bit too early to say if its gonna be a keeper.

Lee

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by AMA

Lee, if you audition nDAC with XPS -- it will cost 30X the price

But seriously -- it's a "Grand Sound" comparing to bare nDAC.

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by AMA

quote:
May be wait for the next big reference DAC from Naim?

It will need two 555PS anyway (16 K$ above a reference DAC cost)

quote:
Or a dCS?

It will take 80 K$

Hey, I'm audiophile -- not equipment-phile

I don't need the best or the most expensive system -- I need a system which make me happy to listen for my music collection.

With all my respect to Naim: Weiss DAC202 works as transport, DAC, headphone amp at less price than nDAC/555Ps which still needs a transport.

I guess if Weiss can send a sample overseas for home audition with reasonable return policy.

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by DanielP

quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
quote:
Or a dCS?

It will take 80 K$

No it won't

When I was researching this, I found a couple of people who had found happiness with a MBP + Weiss Int202 + dcs Scarlatti alone. I became one of them.

I'm not going to spend another $14,000+tax on an upsampler box, if I want to upsample, I'll buy software. As far as the clock, I want no more than one box between the MBP and the dac that functions as the master clock and handles 16/44.1 to 24/192, and for now the Int202 serves just fine. And no need to buy a transport.

-- Daniel

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by james n

quote:
JYOW, do you know if DAC202 uses a linear PS?
Is it standard design or super-reg?

Linear - two toroids (one for the digital side) and multiple regs (standard not super-reg).

It's good on S/PDIF but really comes into its own via Firewire (as does the DAC2)

James

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by AMA

quote:
Linear - two toroids (one for the digital side) and multiple regs (standard not super-reg).

I thought so. Hi,James -- thanks a lot!
I guess you already dipped your hands into 202 guts?
How do they manage the transients and noise floor with small (in Naim scale) toroids?

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by AMA

quote:
When I was researching this, I found a couple of people who had found happiness with a MBP + Weiss Int202 + dcs Scarlatti alone. I became one of them.

Hi, Daniel -- Scarlatti DAC is still 25 K$. More than twice of nDAC/555PS.
It's a lot but not crazy. Some people here prefer it to CD555 with dual 555PS.
Did you demo it against NaimDAC with the same INT202 transport?
And did you prove yourself that INT202 can rival Scarlatti transport?

Posted on: 03 October 2010 by DanielP

quote:
Originally posted by DanielP:
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
Hi, Daniel -- Scarlatti DAC is still 25 K$. More than twice of nDAC/555PS.
It's a lot but not crazy. Some people here prefer it to CD555 with dual 555PS.
Did you demo it against NaimDAC with the same INT202 transport?
And did you prove yourself that INT202 can rival Scarlatti transport?

Hi AMA,

Yeah, my purchasing decisions for source and speakers have been heavily influenced by members of this forum, including the idea of spending a lot on the source, but I can't afford to go completely crazy.

I haven't had the opportunity of hearing the Naim dac with the Int202, or to compare it head to head with the dCS, so I can't really comment. On the other hand, I'm quite sure that the Int202 and the Naim dac would make an excellent combination. I also note, and find reassuring, that the Int202 gets very good comments on this forum.

No dealer in my area stocked dCS, so there wasn't much chance of a home audition. My dealer arranged an audition at the home of one of her customers, who had the Scarlatti dac, upsampler, transport, and the Esoteric G-0Rb master clock, that lot must have added up to $90,000. In truth, I prefer my system, but that really comes down more to speaker preferences than anything else, the systems were different, the rooms were different, and it's impossible to compare them.

The most liberating thing I ever did was to give up on the idea of finding the "best" sound, therein lies madness. In my search, I came across a gentleman on another forum who said he had found happiness with an Int202+Scarlatti dac, and that he experienced no loss compared to an Esoteric transport to the same DAC. Since I've always liked the dCS house sound, and this seemed like a particularly simple setup, I just decided to go with it. And I'm happy with it.

-- Daniel

Posted on: 04 October 2010 by AMA

Daniel -- very interesting write-up indeed.
If I read you in short there is an opinion that MBP(or PC)/INT202 is on par with Scarlatti transport (except it does not play SACD which is mostly redundant today).
No big surprise -- as HDD-based solutions are inherently better/simpler/cheaper than disc spinners.

I don't see Naim gears in your profile.
What makes you visiting a Naim forum? Possibly you got powerlines?

Posted on: 04 October 2010 by DanielP

quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
If I read you in short there is an opinion that MBP(or PC)/INT202 is on par with Scarlatti transport (except it does not play SACD which is mostly redundant today).

Perhaps not entirely redundant, for those with collections. But it looks like some people have had success in converting SACD to PCM and capturing the digital output, so even there, there's a path.

quote:

I don't see Naim gears in your profile.
What makes you visiting a Naim forum? Possibly you got powerlines?

Yeah, I came here because I was auditioning Naim, and was looking for recommendations. I ended up going in a different direction, but stayed because I got hooked on the forum. I have a very good opinion of Naim, and it's interesting to follow the developments. And there's a lot of good stuff here about non-Naim sources, which I've found helpful.

Not that the forum hasn't had an impact. A stray response from keilic - "Would you consider stepping up to Amati? Edouard loves it ..." led me to ask a dealer "Do you happen to have any Amatis in the store?" which led me to spend about $20,000 more on speakers than I had originally intended!

-- Daniel

Posted on: 04 October 2010 by AMA

Daniel, Naim sources (like CDS3) are definitely sitting on the musical Olympus.
But they have very strong house sound signature -- say very different from Linn or ARC (which I love as well). I could happily live with KDS for example. This make me thinking that sticking to nDAC is not the only option for me especially if there is a chance to accumulate features in a small box like Weiss DAC202. On the other hand multiple posts (including yours) push me towards INT202 into nDAC solution with consequent upgrade to 555PS.

Anyway what makes Naim really outstanding is their amps. 252/300 is absolutely cracking 4-box amplifier which I'm about to buy.

I tried several models of Boulder and found Naim to be much closer to my liking. But I agree with you that seeking for the "best" gear is quite silly as there are so many lateral options so that only a personal taste can be a judge. If you take a chance to audition 252/300 you may got converted to Naim. Or hate it because it's so different from Boulder

Posted on: 04 October 2010 by js

AMA, did you also hear a 500 or 552 paired with either of those.

Posted on: 05 October 2010 by AMA

quote:
AMA, did you also hear a 500 or 552 paired with either of those.

No. But I have a chance to audition LP12 and CD555 with 552/500 from David Sutton in Abu-Dhabi (about 1 hour drive from Dubai). We are currently scheduling the visit to his place -- I gonna grab my beloved vinyl along with me

I have to say that going to 552/500 is a series jump in price comparing to 252/300 which should be justified by a dazzling increase in quality

The subtle improvement will not work for me.

Posted on: 05 October 2010 by js

They are, depending on source. Either is pretty significant and I've never been of the opinion that both or neither are the only options. Mix and match is fine.

Posted on: 06 October 2010 by George Fredrik

Try the 552 with a 300. This the winning pre-power combo from Naim, IMO.

If you prefer the 552/500 combo of course this is correct for you [and many others], but the 300 really does some very special things in the musical sense, even if for some the ultimate weight of the mass of sound will inevitably be less than with a 500 [or several in Active mode] ...

ATB from George

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by AMA

As I can see there are a lot of people who find DAC202 to be a strong rival to nDAC/PS.

I just want to see how many of you preferred INT202->nDAC to DAC202?

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by AMA

quote:
AFAIK, no-one has reported a comparison between a DAC202 and the nDAC/INT202 (although plenty of nDAC/other interface/cable comparisons).

I think there was one and the guy kept INT202/nDAC.

My thoughts of buying INT202 are highly inspired by your wonderful review of HDX against INT202 into nDAC. But I'm looking now for the feedback on cheaper option: Evo (which can be powered from external PS).

BTW Can I power INT202 from external PS or Firewire is the only option?

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton

Allen,

Is there any possible way you can demo the Serve as well? I would love for someone like you, with your killer system, demo the digital output of both into the Naim DAC.

I still find it hard to believe that there is a huge difference between them. I suspect a non-HDX owner would be a bit more objective.

Thanks!
Patrick

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton

Allen,

Is there maybe another dealer in the UK who would ship it to you for a home demo?

Any takers, UK Dealers???

I, and others i imagine, would really like to hear your impressions.

-Patrick

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
I would like to prove (or otherwise) whether there is a difference in SQ out of the dig on the HDX and Serve in a HQ system. If there wasn't, in my system, I would probably buy the Serve tomorrow!

There MUST be a dealer somewhere there that would help? Why do you think it unlikely? My dealer is about 3 hours away and he has no problems at all with home demos. In fact he even brought the nDAC to me as he was passing through town.

There is no way Simon can get a Serve?

I find it hard to believe another dealer wouldn't take your credit card number and ship you a Serve. If you dont like it, he doesn't authorize the card.

Anyone out there???? Anyone?

JS, send Allen a frikin Serve already!!!!!!!

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton

Once again would really like to hear the impression of someone who owns neither a DS, HDX nor Serve.

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by docmark

quote:
I won't go into it further on this forum, but Weiss are not in the same league in this respect.

AllenB - I own a DAC202, and I've had a couple of issues with it - first, a malfunctioning headphone output, and now the LCD is no longer backlit. In the first case, Daniel Weiss arranged pickup by a courier from my office, and then assisted a North American dealer in getting me a replacement unit, all within days to a week. And I live in Vancouver. Pretty impressive. With the current issue of the LCD, I've already exchanged emails with him, and he's 100% behind his product.

I think that Weiss is a great company based on the dealings I've had with them so far.

Posted on: 07 October 2010 by DanielP

quote:
Originally posted by docmark:
I think that Weiss is a great company based on the dealings I've had with them so far.

My impression too. On several occasions, from Toronto, at night, I've sent questions and raised issues on the Weiss support link. Without fail, on the morning, I've received a detailed and thorough response from Daniel Weiss. I've never seen support quite like that.

-- Daniel