Fraim price

Most people agree that the Fraim looks and sounds decent. It costs much the same as similar products by Wilson Benesch, Townshend and the like. Phase 17 Mana costs a lot. Base is overpriced nowadays. Wobbly 60s tea trollies are priced about right.

Alex

Why is the Fraim constantly singled out as the only Naim product that is overpriced. It is expensive in material terms, but in the context of Naim systems, which inevitably it was primarily designed for, it is a little naive to believe that Naim were going to produce a 5 level rack for, say, £600, when £6k+ CD players and £11k+ pre amps are going to sit on it. Why is it not considered part of the upgrade path for a Naim system, along with the boxes, when people who can afford it think nothing of spending thousands of pounds on a single box upgrade. I think people moan about the cost because it is frustratingly only a few hundred pounds over their budget, as opposed to thousands of pounds, in which case they could dismiss it out of hand and not worry about it, as with the CDS II, 52 and 500 which are horrendously expensive, but I don't hear any complaints about their cost, particularly from people who own them.

Cheers
Ade

A dealer I know said that most of the few Fraims he sold were to 5 series owners!

Ged, if that's the case then you're not saying very much for your intelligence.

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Originally posted by Ade Archer:
It is expensive in material terms, but in the context of Naim systems, which inevitably it was primarily designed for, it is a little naive to believe that Naim were going to produce a 5 level rack for, say, £600, when £6k+ CD players and £11k+ pre amps are going to sit on it.

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Where's the problem? Naim suggest to use NACA5 at 12,70 EUR per metre with 10k GBP power amps.

Ciao!

Willem

Alex: Wobbly 60s tea trollies are priced about right.

That's what you think. Clearly, you're not well up on the secretive world of 60s tea trolley hedge funds. Besides which, the volatility in the spot market will likely as not cause tea trolley futures to go haywire - and you can bet that when this happens the wheels will fall off the whole thing. Just don't tell anyone I told you, OK?

--Sproggle

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Where's the problem? Naim suggest to use NACA5 at 12,70 EUR per metre with 10k GBP power amps.

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I would suggest Naim would make a lot more money if they wished by taking the piss with cable prices rather than the Fraim. You are warned of the possible consequences of using fancy expensive speaker cables with Naim amps, and advised to use NACA5, yet they charge a relative pittance for it. Nobody tells you to use a Fraim 'or else your amps will blow up' so you have complete freedom of choice, yet you go and moan about the price. I could understand peoples' concerns if a Fraim was essential to a Naim system, but it isn't. Some people spend more than the cost of a five level Fraim on speaker cable. I can't afford a CDSII or a 52, but I'm not going to moan about them being too expensive. I can buy a CD player for £80, and a CDSII just does the same job, but better, and probably has less features. It's difficult to justify in real terms how one costs 75 times the other, but performs the same function. Yet a Fraim would probably cost at most 8-10 times the most basic hifi rack you could possibly find. It's all down to whether you consider it worth the extra. If you don't, great, if you do, and can afford to, get it, whether that be rack, Cd player, or whatever.

Cheers
Ade

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on WEDNESDAY 05 June 2002 at 23:55.]

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with hindesight the fraim may have been a mistake, lack of intelligence, you decide?

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Since I don't think the Fraim has been available for much more than a year, that's not a lack of intelligence, but it is a severe lack of foresight.

Ade

Ade

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A dealer I know said that most of the few Fraims he sold were to 5 series owners!

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So the dealer has only sold a few?

I have not heard any equipment played on a Fraim yet. I have seen and touched/moved/wobbbled a 3 tier Fraim, so inevitably I have some preconceptions.

Logically my system needs a Friam or similar, but contrary to perceived wisdom the Fraim's aesthetics do not really appeal to me - It's got a sort of seventies look, which may be trendy again but...........having said that I'm not keen on the looks of the stands I propose to compare it to!!

I have not yet spoken to my dealer about this but I'm not sure how the comparisons are to be made. Is he going to demonstrate a full Naim system fully Fraimed, then replace the Fraim with Hutter, then Isoblue, then Quadraspire etc. Will he then isolate the record player and then the cd player and demonstrate them with the various different supports? Will he suggest Mana undr the sbls?

I think it's going to be fun but I really need to find some time to do it, and my personal benchmark is going to be a Supercap. I have heard at home extensively (and desperately want) a Supercap - I might now think that the Frianm is very expensive (or overpriced if you prefer) but I'll reserve judgement for the time being (with the knowledge that I may not get over my preconceptions).

Chris

Ged,

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I bought one, but was unhappy about the price

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well that's not particularly smart when there's alternatives.

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I now feel any future upgrades are going to be restricted by the price of extra fraim levels when required.

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in the context of your original message this also does not show much thought. After your last message maybe you should have said that your future upgrades are going to be restricted by lifestyle choices?

Anyone who sacrifices income in order to have more time with their children is displaying huge intelligence. They can put their toaster on a Fraim for all I care, although mine's lightening fast on phase 17 Mana. Naturally, my rather fine tea set is on QS ref.

Alex

>> being asked implicitly to equate this with "Naim is cynically exploiting its customers' loyalty by making excessive profits on the FRAIM." <<

Not neccessarily -- It may just be that the way Naim does things costs a lot more than you think, be that manufacturing costs or an unusually high amount of R&D or whatever.

Persaonlly I suspect its expensive but honestly priced as all Naim stuff seems to be and the real mystery is quite why its so expensive to manufacture. With the electronics one can rationalise a lot of the cost from the obviously expensive methods (hand made, lots of rejeting of components, high levels of QA, greater than normal re-work, etc.) but its very difficult to see how much of applies to the Fraim. Especially as one imagines that the majority of its manufacture is done by 3rd parties anyway..

My best guess is that the overall market is smaller than you think (total hi-fi stands is small, expensive stands for Naim must be minute), the R&D was more than you think, and the manufacturing is more than you think. I also suspect Naim is generally a very conservative organisation in terms of the assumptions it makes, managing its cash flow, its use of debt, expecetd payback periods and so on. All of which make things more expensive than one might imagine.

Matthew

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Anyone who sacrifices income in order to have more time with their children is displaying huge intelligence.

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This is completely misconstruing what I said. Ged originally made the comment that he bought a fraim even though he thought it cost too much and that he couldn't afford to upgrade because fraim levels cost too much. This is what I was commenting on as it clearly doesn't display any rational thought. Why buy something that you think costs too much then complain about the price when there are alternatives to what you've bought?
His next message revealed the real reason that he couldn't afford to upgrade which has absolutely nothing to do with the price of Fraim but the choice to have children and sacrifice income. This is a completely different scenario and is not being disputed.

Ged,

Why not sell the Fraim and buy Target or QS?

Phil

...if your system is in the living room, you can set it up as your family system and you can all enjoy it with movies, TV, music, etc. As for upgrades, adding a FRAIM level is just another option you have when the time comes - you can always buy the box and not FRAIM it if that would be the better move. And upgrading a box does not require additional FRAIM levels. At least FRAIM is modular so you can add new components as you go rather than having to sell a 4-tier then buy a 5-tier etc.

FWIW, I agree with others that you have your priorities straight.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Ged

Quote..."This is no way to communicate with your fellow Naimsters.

Ged I can see where you are coming from, but you did present your case in a way that invited criticism.

The main thing is do not take it personally. Its your rationalle, rather than you, that is being criticised and we all love you.

Regards

Mick

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A little more thought in your original post would'nt have gone a miss, instead you chose to use the word 'stupid' and questioned my intelligence, I don't think I am being unfair in pointing out that your posts have a very self assured and judgemental tone.

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Ged,
what would you say to someone who's come out and said that they've bought something they don't need (there are alternatives) even though it was way too expensive? How about if they then went on to say that the expensive purchase will then adversely affect any future buying decisions?

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Its your rationalle, rather than you, that is being criticised

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well, that of the original argument.

But then I guess "We've just had a kid and one of us has given up work" is hardly going to convince Naim to drop their prices, is it?

John -

You may have missed the part where Ged mentioned a *change* in priorities - thus moving his household from 2 incomes to 1. It is very reasonable, under such circumstances, to then regret a recent luxury purchase.

Yes - perfect planning on Ged and his partner's part would have avoided this, but life is seldom so neat and priorities change.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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You may have missed the part where Ged mentioned a *change* in priorities - thus moving his household from 2 incomes to 1. It is very reasonable, under such circumstances, to then regret a recent luxury purchase.

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Greg, I didn't miss it, it wasn't mentioned in his first message (see below)

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FRAIM = OVER PRICED
I bought one, but was unhappy about the price
I now feel any future upgrades are going to be
restricted by the price of extra fraim levels when required.

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Do you ever indulge yourself at a really good restaurant on a special occasion? buy the best wine, choose the most expensive dish on the menu, drink liqours etc and go completley over board just for the hell of it.

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yes

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The next day you might regret the expense but hey you only live once.

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no, or I wouldn't have done it in the first place

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Following such a night out you may have to watch the pennies for a few weeks,

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again no, I wouldn't spend the money if I didn't have it. Of course once I do have it, then I certainly don't mind spending it.

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best steer clear of our nights of beery excess topped off with a trip to the local indian,
you sound far too sensible.

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Ged,
I'm all for going out on a bender but I'm just not going to worry about it afterwards.
Life is to be enjoyed - within your means.

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Come on John, your not telling me that you've never overindulged in a purchase or a night out, got up the next morning and thought ouch, I'm not talking about credit cards, I mean just pushed the boat out just a little too far with the available funds.

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ummm... sorry to disappoint you, but no. I've definitely woken up and thought ouch on many an occasion, but not about the financial side of things.

[This message was edited by John Sheridan on FRIDAY 07 June 2002 at 11:20.]

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Ged - dunno about your nights of beery excess, but surely there's a world of difference between going out on the lash and buying a fraim?

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unless you bought the fraim while still pissed of course

Fuck me a social discourse on the pleasures of expensive meals and expensive shelves.

People get over it, both are expenisive yet we all indulge like the lemmings that we are.

shut up.