Changing History Education so as not to offend religious groups
Posted by: DAVOhorn on 04 April 2007
dear all,
on the radio here the other night they discussed a recent article in a news paper in the UK regarding the teaching of History in UK schools so that religious groups are not offended by the truth.
Notably the non teaching of the Holocoust and the crusades as this offend Muslims to such an extent that they have resorted to threats of violence to the teachers and the schools. Also there have been incidents between pupils of differeing religions over what is the truth. It seems that the Imams in the mosques are not teaching the truth with regard to History and have put a religious slant to or omit to teach and stating that events DID NOT OCCUR.
A respondent on the radio program was a History teacher here in Sydney and he affirmed that this takes place here in schools. If HISTORY WAS TAUGHT HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY then all hell would break loose amongst the Muslim students their families and the local Mosque. He stated that threats had been made that the school was not to CONTRADICT THE TEACHINGS OF THE IMAMS IN THE MOSQUES.
WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON . ARE WE REALLY GOING TO ALLOW RELIGIOUS BIGOTS TO CHANGE THE HISTORY OF EUROPE PURELY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE THE TRUTH.
Certainly i have known victims of the Holocaust and they have told me their stories. I had a good education which taught about the 2nd world war and its horrors. My father fought in the 2nd world war. i have read books seen documentaries etc regarding the holocaust. I know friends who have been to the Concentration camps as they had family memebers who had died in the camps.
So what are we to do.
Deal with these Grossly Prejudiced Religious Bigots and protect society from this abhorrent bogotry.?
Or not offend the sensibilities of these bigots as they rewrite history and impose their prejudice on the rest of us.
This religious prejudice and bigotry i find very scary and indeed frightening as the lengths these people will go to to impose their WILL and version of history on us is also frightening.
Regards david
on the radio here the other night they discussed a recent article in a news paper in the UK regarding the teaching of History in UK schools so that religious groups are not offended by the truth.
Notably the non teaching of the Holocoust and the crusades as this offend Muslims to such an extent that they have resorted to threats of violence to the teachers and the schools. Also there have been incidents between pupils of differeing religions over what is the truth. It seems that the Imams in the mosques are not teaching the truth with regard to History and have put a religious slant to or omit to teach and stating that events DID NOT OCCUR.
A respondent on the radio program was a History teacher here in Sydney and he affirmed that this takes place here in schools. If HISTORY WAS TAUGHT HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY then all hell would break loose amongst the Muslim students their families and the local Mosque. He stated that threats had been made that the school was not to CONTRADICT THE TEACHINGS OF THE IMAMS IN THE MOSQUES.
WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON . ARE WE REALLY GOING TO ALLOW RELIGIOUS BIGOTS TO CHANGE THE HISTORY OF EUROPE PURELY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE THE TRUTH.
Certainly i have known victims of the Holocaust and they have told me their stories. I had a good education which taught about the 2nd world war and its horrors. My father fought in the 2nd world war. i have read books seen documentaries etc regarding the holocaust. I know friends who have been to the Concentration camps as they had family memebers who had died in the camps.
So what are we to do.
Deal with these Grossly Prejudiced Religious Bigots and protect society from this abhorrent bogotry.?
Or not offend the sensibilities of these bigots as they rewrite history and impose their prejudice on the rest of us.
This religious prejudice and bigotry i find very scary and indeed frightening as the lengths these people will go to to impose their WILL and version of history on us is also frightening.
Regards david
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Paul Ranson
quote:Was there a policy to transport Jews and other 'undesirables' to 'death camps' where they were systematically slaughtered within days of their arrival or is the truth not quite so clear cut?
You really need to do some reading before coming over all David Irving on a public forum.
Paul
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:Originally posted by Kevin-W:
Sorry to sound suspicious here, but where does the original story come from?
I say that because the Daily Express(to name only the most guilty publication) here in the UK often runs stories like this. They almost always turn out to be baseless. That's why they're never followed up.
The Daily Telegraph ( online ) ran this story.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Nope.....I've just re-read Dave's post and he is quite specific. It is about Imans trying to dictate what must be taught in school history in the UK and what must not be taught and the reason for their demands.
The sooner their pathetic rants are silenced, the better. And based on what these reports claim has been said, I think we need to montitor more closely just what these Imans are actually preaching in their mosques on Fridays.
Cheers
Don
Don
AIUI the Quran is *specifically* anti-Semetic in parts. I have seen covert footage of Imams preaching some pretty rabid polemic about Jews, recently broadcast on TV.
Regards
Mike
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by u5227470736789439
I see a link betwwen the restrictions placed on people by perceived Politcal Correctness and the loss of Freedom Of Speech in the most respectable sense.
If you cannot mention something, how can you possibly discuss and analyse it, with a view to finding a balanced truth? Rarely does all the truth reside in one text or source, and learning how to cross reference and think is crucial, especially in History, where some of it can indeed seem unpalatable in our time!
It is all too rare that people realise that in any case the search for a balanced view is only going to get them nearer the truth, which is always partially lost in time. But the honest search is a commendable excercise, and because one can never be completely sure one has found the perfect truth, the search can go on a whole lifetime if it matters enough to a person.
Even this may not be real proof, though given the atmosphere, it felt horribly real enough to me...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
If you cannot mention something, how can you possibly discuss and analyse it, with a view to finding a balanced truth? Rarely does all the truth reside in one text or source, and learning how to cross reference and think is crucial, especially in History, where some of it can indeed seem unpalatable in our time!
It is all too rare that people realise that in any case the search for a balanced view is only going to get them nearer the truth, which is always partially lost in time. But the honest search is a commendable excercise, and because one can never be completely sure one has found the perfect truth, the search can go on a whole lifetime if it matters enough to a person.
Even this may not be real proof, though given the atmosphere, it felt horribly real enough to me...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Malky
quote:Originally posted by Paul Ranson:quote:Was there a policy to transport Jews and other 'undesirables' to 'death camps' where they were systematically slaughtered within days of their arrival or is the truth not quite so clear cut?
You really need to do some reading before coming over all David Irving on a public forum.
The Wannsee conference. Made into a chilling film with Kenneth Branagh as top Nazi Heydrich.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Phil Barry
Nazi Genocide
There is simply too much eye-witness and documentary evidence available to doubt these official Nazi policies and practices:
1) transporting Jews to extermination camps and mudering large numbers of Jews there
2) using Poles (and other Slavs), communists, socialists, homosexuals, Gypsies (Romany?), and some Jews as slave labor
3) to house, clothe, and feed slave laborers in a manner that dramatically shortened their lives.
These policies and practices were authorized by Nazi laws, so they were 'legal', but it's hard to find any valid moral basis for them.
The fact many people died from Typhus while doing slave labor in no way supports any assertion that these people died from 'natural causes', because of the lack of moral basis for nazi laws, policies, and practices.
Virtually every prisoner who died in the camps was murdered, whether by acts of commission (gun, gas, industrial accidents, etc.) or omission (lack of adequate food, medicine, shelter, clothing, rest, etc.).
Of the 12 million ( 6 M Jews, + 6 M others) who died (best swag), certainly a very few probably died of heart attacks while they were still otherwise healthy. Those who died 'naturally' BECAUSE they had been transported were, in fact, murdered, but I agree that, of 12 M dead, some prisoners probably died of causes that the vast majority of us would call 'natural'.
I don't see how that helps deniers. So what if the nazis killed 11,990,000 wrongly-imprisoned people instead of 12,000,000?
Most Slavs were to be kept around as slaves. Communists, Socialists, other anti-regime elements could be murdered regardless of race, national origin, or creed.
But Jews and homosexuals were, in theory, to be murdered regardless of gender, race, national origin, political belief, etc. Homosexuals, however, could keep their lives if they stayed in the closet. People with as few as 1 Jewish grandparent were doomed.
Many people were hated by the nazis, but Jews were singled out for special penalties.
The Term 'Holocaust'
I fear the media have trivialized what the Nazis did. I suspect most people in the West know that 6 M Jews were murdered. If the number '12 M' is mentioned, I think most Westerners were be lost.
I don't want to minimize the loss of Jews, but I think we should remember the other 6 M, too. Of course, it's not fashionable, really, to mourn the murdered reds, pinkos, homosexuals, and Slavs - but they were real people pretty much like us, and they did not deserve to be murdered. Nor do they deserve to be discounted because they didn't have the strength to survive as slave laborers, or whatever David Irving avers.
Teaching History
The BBC story is a lot less biased than the Telegraph.
To avoid teaching the holocaust or slavery or the Crusades because some people want to avoid the topic is stupid. All of these topics are pretty important to European history - and if I were English, I'd want to know about Europe.
No one should be allowed to ignore facts.
But, as Deane says, historical consensus changes as facts and opinions come to light. History IS written by the victors, but given time, even the victors revise their understanding of historical events.
Further, we all filter what we perceive via our experiences, values, abilities, desires, etc. History is simply not perfectly objective.
Note that Israeli historians have published accounts that cast doubt on the official reports. Of course the victors write the history, but historians like to get it right.
Anti-Jewish statements in the Koran
My understaning is that the Koran contains many statements on Jews, some very favorable, some despicable.
Some strains of Islamic thought strongly support pluralism; others clearly do not.
Perhaps the real question is what kind of people are moved by what kind of statements, and what are the implications of those choices.
Regards.
Phil
There is simply too much eye-witness and documentary evidence available to doubt these official Nazi policies and practices:
1) transporting Jews to extermination camps and mudering large numbers of Jews there
2) using Poles (and other Slavs), communists, socialists, homosexuals, Gypsies (Romany?), and some Jews as slave labor
3) to house, clothe, and feed slave laborers in a manner that dramatically shortened their lives.
These policies and practices were authorized by Nazi laws, so they were 'legal', but it's hard to find any valid moral basis for them.
The fact many people died from Typhus while doing slave labor in no way supports any assertion that these people died from 'natural causes', because of the lack of moral basis for nazi laws, policies, and practices.
Virtually every prisoner who died in the camps was murdered, whether by acts of commission (gun, gas, industrial accidents, etc.) or omission (lack of adequate food, medicine, shelter, clothing, rest, etc.).
Of the 12 million ( 6 M Jews, + 6 M others) who died (best swag), certainly a very few probably died of heart attacks while they were still otherwise healthy. Those who died 'naturally' BECAUSE they had been transported were, in fact, murdered, but I agree that, of 12 M dead, some prisoners probably died of causes that the vast majority of us would call 'natural'.
I don't see how that helps deniers. So what if the nazis killed 11,990,000 wrongly-imprisoned people instead of 12,000,000?
Most Slavs were to be kept around as slaves. Communists, Socialists, other anti-regime elements could be murdered regardless of race, national origin, or creed.
But Jews and homosexuals were, in theory, to be murdered regardless of gender, race, national origin, political belief, etc. Homosexuals, however, could keep their lives if they stayed in the closet. People with as few as 1 Jewish grandparent were doomed.
Many people were hated by the nazis, but Jews were singled out for special penalties.
The Term 'Holocaust'
I fear the media have trivialized what the Nazis did. I suspect most people in the West know that 6 M Jews were murdered. If the number '12 M' is mentioned, I think most Westerners were be lost.
I don't want to minimize the loss of Jews, but I think we should remember the other 6 M, too. Of course, it's not fashionable, really, to mourn the murdered reds, pinkos, homosexuals, and Slavs - but they were real people pretty much like us, and they did not deserve to be murdered. Nor do they deserve to be discounted because they didn't have the strength to survive as slave laborers, or whatever David Irving avers.
Teaching History
The BBC story is a lot less biased than the Telegraph.
To avoid teaching the holocaust or slavery or the Crusades because some people want to avoid the topic is stupid. All of these topics are pretty important to European history - and if I were English, I'd want to know about Europe.
No one should be allowed to ignore facts.
But, as Deane says, historical consensus changes as facts and opinions come to light. History IS written by the victors, but given time, even the victors revise their understanding of historical events.
Further, we all filter what we perceive via our experiences, values, abilities, desires, etc. History is simply not perfectly objective.
Note that Israeli historians have published accounts that cast doubt on the official reports. Of course the victors write the history, but historians like to get it right.
Anti-Jewish statements in the Koran
My understaning is that the Koran contains many statements on Jews, some very favorable, some despicable.
Some strains of Islamic thought strongly support pluralism; others clearly do not.
Perhaps the real question is what kind of people are moved by what kind of statements, and what are the implications of those choices.
Regards.
Phil
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Paul Ranson:quote:Was there a policy to transport Jews and other 'undesirables' to 'death camps' where they were systematically slaughtered within days of their arrival or is the truth not quite so clear cut?
You really need to do some reading before coming over all David Irving on a public forum.
Paul
Don't try to accuse me of being like David Irving. It is quite clear I was asking questions not providing answers. I agree with your long post 'Nazi Genocide'.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by acad tsunami
Many people here have raised the issue of anti-semitism in the Koran. Both Jews and Arabs are semites thus it is clear that Israel is anti-semitic in its treatment of Palestians. It is also the case that there are numerous anti-gentile remarks in the Bible and in Jewish scripture. I wonder why our media do not mention this?
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Fulcrum
Quote by Malky:
The Wannsee conference. Made into a chilling film with Kenneth Branagh as top Nazi Heydrich.
For reading about Wannsee, take a look at The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution by Mark Roseman.
The Wannsee conference. Made into a chilling film with Kenneth Branagh as top Nazi Heydrich.
For reading about Wannsee, take a look at The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution by Mark Roseman.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Paul Ranson
quote:Don't try to accuse me of being like David Irving.
Don't act like him then.
quote:It is quite clear I was asking questions not providing answers.
Why? Exhaustive answers to those questions are easily available.
Paul
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by TomK
quote:Originally posted by acad tsunami:
Many people here have raised the issue of anti-semitism in the Koran. Both Jews and Arabs are semites thus it is clear that Israel is anti-semitic in its treatment of Palestians. It is also the case that there are numerous anti-gentile remarks in the Bible and in Jewish scripture. I wonder why our media do not mention this?
Anti-Semitism refers specifically to "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group".
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by u5227470736789439
Semite: noun and adjective. Member of any of the races supposed to be descended from Shem [Genisis x.20 and following] including especially the Hebrews, Arameans, Phoenicians, Arabs, and Assyrians... Extract from the Concise Oxford Dictionary.
ATB from Fredrik
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
I think its fair to say that in common parlance, anti-Semitism refers specifically to hatred of Jews.
To suggest otherwise, while accurate in point of fact is disigenuous.
I used the phrase "anti Semitic" as I feel uncomfortable saying "anti Jew/Jewish."
M
To suggest otherwise, while accurate in point of fact is disigenuous.
I used the phrase "anti Semitic" as I feel uncomfortable saying "anti Jew/Jewish."
M
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by SciDoctor
In my day and probably many on this forum both HISTORY and Religious Knowledge were taught as discussion topics.
There were basics of understanding in the early years which then lead to the major argument/discussion and the constant re-seeking of truths from many worldwide texts, historical accounts and expossing the danger of propaganda within HISTORY/RK teachings.
I fear I was from a fortunate generation where the teachers were less constrained by government and relegious fanatics and their over zeleous control of curriculum.
As we have moved through the time of 'peace' since the two major world wars of the last century this 'comfort' has allowed an uneasy perversion of how and what is taught to our children.
We are loosing the philosophical questioning and learning that enlightens and challenges children/pupils and there is a real danger of returning to a Facist/Nazist endoctrination that was one of the major causes of World turmoil in the early to mid years of the last century.
Unless this is outed and corrected we will be heading into a very dangerous fifty year period that will make the last fifty years of world troubles look like a dinner party argument at a friends house.
There were basics of understanding in the early years which then lead to the major argument/discussion and the constant re-seeking of truths from many worldwide texts, historical accounts and expossing the danger of propaganda within HISTORY/RK teachings.
I fear I was from a fortunate generation where the teachers were less constrained by government and relegious fanatics and their over zeleous control of curriculum.
As we have moved through the time of 'peace' since the two major world wars of the last century this 'comfort' has allowed an uneasy perversion of how and what is taught to our children.
We are loosing the philosophical questioning and learning that enlightens and challenges children/pupils and there is a real danger of returning to a Facist/Nazist endoctrination that was one of the major causes of World turmoil in the early to mid years of the last century.
Unless this is outed and corrected we will be heading into a very dangerous fifty year period that will make the last fifty years of world troubles look like a dinner party argument at a friends house.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by u5227470736789439
Mike Lacey wrote:
"I think its fair to say that in common parlance, anti-Semitism refers specifically to hatred of Jews.
"To suggest otherwise, while accurate in point of fact is disigenuous.
"I used the phrase "anti Semitic" as I feel uncomfortable saying "anti Jew/Jewish."
End of quotation.
______________
Dear Mike,
Why?
"Anti-Jewish" is precise. "Anti-semite," when used for the same meaning as "Anti-Jewish" lacks precision, and may require a wasteful subsequent clarification.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
"I think its fair to say that in common parlance, anti-Semitism refers specifically to hatred of Jews.
"To suggest otherwise, while accurate in point of fact is disigenuous.
"I used the phrase "anti Semitic" as I feel uncomfortable saying "anti Jew/Jewish."
End of quotation.
______________
Dear Mike,
Why?
"Anti-Jewish" is precise. "Anti-semite," when used for the same meaning as "Anti-Jewish" lacks precision, and may require a wasteful subsequent clarification.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Semite: noun and adjective. Member of any of the races supposed to be descended from Shem [Genisis x.20 and following] including especially the Hebrews, Arameans, Phoenicians, Arabs, and Assyrians... Extract from the Concise Oxford Dictionary.
ATB from Fredrik
Exactly, thank you Fredrik. How often some of us get attacked on this forum for knowing more than others. Liliputions everywhere methinks.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Paul Ranson:quote:Don't try to accuse me of being like David Irving.
Don't act like him then.quote:It is quite clear I was asking questions not providing answers.
Why? Exhaustive answers to those questions are easily available.
Paul
I have not acted like him and you can not show that I have - it is no good quoting a sentence out of context - read what I wrote. I was asking rhetorical questions. As far as I know Irving is a holocaust denier and I am not. Not even remotely. Now before you start a personal crusade with the intent to demonise me in your rage I suggest you go back and read what I wrote carefully without twisting the meaning to suit your agenda.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Deane F
There is, possibly, a far more interesting question that the topic starter for this thread has implied with his remarks:
What role do we expect schools to take in homogenising our societies?
This seems to me to be one of the issues at the heart of DAVOhorn's feelings about the matter. Because, like it or not, our societies support far more diversity now than was ever the case in the past.
If you don't want your children to learn what is taught (or not taught) in schools - then you have several alternative choices. This thread was not started by somebody who is interested in reasoning their way to an acceptance of, or solution to, a perceived problem.
What role do we expect schools to take in homogenising our societies?
This seems to me to be one of the issues at the heart of DAVOhorn's feelings about the matter. Because, like it or not, our societies support far more diversity now than was ever the case in the past.
If you don't want your children to learn what is taught (or not taught) in schools - then you have several alternative choices. This thread was not started by somebody who is interested in reasoning their way to an acceptance of, or solution to, a perceived problem.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Big Brother
I'm reading this book by William F Buckley where he suggest School Vouchers that could be issued by the Feds, this would allow people to be more selective of the schools their children attend. By privatizing the schools you would allow them to teach anything they wish. Eurocentrics could send their kids to a Christian or secular school, those who worship Allah could send theirs to a different school and so on.
The way the public schools are structured this would not be very practical, but an interesting idea nonetheless.
BB
The way the public schools are structured this would not be very practical, but an interesting idea nonetheless.
BB
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear BB,
What would happen if this system promoted more segregated education, with extremes being taught, as this would indeed free up some schools to move towards being perhaps even Fundamentalist Religeous organisations, alongside more conventional moderate Religeous and Secular ones...
I think that road would be quite divisive in time, personally.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
What would happen if this system promoted more segregated education, with extremes being taught, as this would indeed free up some schools to move towards being perhaps even Fundamentalist Religeous organisations, alongside more conventional moderate Religeous and Secular ones...
I think that road would be quite divisive in time, personally.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by bornwina
quote:
If you don't want your children to learn what is taught (or not taught) in schools - then you have several alternative choices.
Oh really, like what? A practical solution please.
quote:
What role do we expect schools to take in homogenising our societies?
None - the job of school is to prepare children for life experiences and contribution to society not some wanky politico agenda - if that includes learning about the holocaust and the religeous or cultural beliefs of others then fine.
Preaching the holocaust should not be taught from the pulpit (or equivalent) is unacceptable, surely you agree?
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by bornwina
quote:
Exactly, thank you Fredrik. How often some of us get attacked on this forum for knowing more than others. Liliputions everywhere methinks.
I wonder whether you might share with us your knowledge of modesty - suggest you draft your notes on the back of a postage stamp.
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Paul Ranson
[quote="acad"]I was asking rhetorical questions.[/quote]
You wrote, for example,
Now, if you're suggesting that Holocaust deniers are worthy of study then I agree. If you're suggesting that the common knowledge in the UK of recent atrocity is a little narrow then I agree. But you read like you're suggesting that the Holocaust deniers may have a point.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm is worth scanning for an accounting of the toll in the 20th century.
Paul
You wrote, for example,
quote:What most people are unaware of is that is alleged by some that most of those who died in the concentration camps died of Typhus and their bodies were burned or piled into mass graves to limit the spread of the disease.
Now, if you're suggesting that Holocaust deniers are worthy of study then I agree. If you're suggesting that the common knowledge in the UK of recent atrocity is a little narrow then I agree. But you read like you're suggesting that the Holocaust deniers may have a point.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm is worth scanning for an accounting of the toll in the 20th century.
Paul
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by bornwina:quote:
If you don't want your children to learn what is taught (or not taught) in schools - then you have several alternative choices.
Oh really, like what? A practical solution please.quote:
What role do we expect schools to take in homogenising our societies?
None - the job of school is to prepare children for life experiences and contribution to society not some wanky politico agenda - if that includes learning about the holocaust and the religeous or cultural beliefs of others then fine.
Preaching the holocaust should not be taught from the pulpit (or equivalent) is unacceptable, surely you agree?
bornwina
Nice tone. I'll (attempt to) answer in kind.
The job you want schools to perform is just another version of your own wanky politico agenda. You don't like discussion or questioning - you want facts and truth and you want children to grow up to be just like their parents.
A practical alternative exists. Read "Summerhill" or Google "Democratic Schooling".
Taking a wanky politico tone from your pulpit really doesn't work. Surely you agree?
Deane
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
[quote="acad"]I was asking rhetorical questions.
You wrote, for example,
quote:What most people are unaware of is that is alleged by some that most of those who died in the concentration camps died of Typhus and their bodies were burned or piled into mass graves to limit the spread of the disease.
Now, if you're suggesting that Holocaust deniers are worthy of study then I agree. If you're suggesting that the common knowledge in the UK of recent atrocity is a little narrow then I agree. But you read like you're suggesting that the Holocaust deniers may have a point.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm is worth scanning for an accounting of the toll in the 20th century.
Paul[/QUOTE]
Paul,
My point concerned how difficult it is to know the exact numbers involved - how many were murdered and how many died of natural causes or disease. Many people think all the people in the camps were murdered but I am sure this can't be true. Typhus was widespread as was TB and other fatal diseases both inside and outside the camps. I take the view that the conditions made the chances of disease much greater so the Germans were culpable - this is like your 'sins of omission'. Of course there was intent to implement a final solution and many were slaughtered on an industrial scale but it is hysterical to suggest they were all murdered - you may argue its a fine point - I would be apt to agree with you.
I know nothing of what Irving preaches. I know nothing of what any holocaust denier preaches - I have never been interested in anything they have to say and I doubt I ever will. We are batting on the same side here Paul.