Changing History Education so as not to offend religious groups
Posted by: DAVOhorn on 04 April 2007
dear all,
on the radio here the other night they discussed a recent article in a news paper in the UK regarding the teaching of History in UK schools so that religious groups are not offended by the truth.
Notably the non teaching of the Holocoust and the crusades as this offend Muslims to such an extent that they have resorted to threats of violence to the teachers and the schools. Also there have been incidents between pupils of differeing religions over what is the truth. It seems that the Imams in the mosques are not teaching the truth with regard to History and have put a religious slant to or omit to teach and stating that events DID NOT OCCUR.
A respondent on the radio program was a History teacher here in Sydney and he affirmed that this takes place here in schools. If HISTORY WAS TAUGHT HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY then all hell would break loose amongst the Muslim students their families and the local Mosque. He stated that threats had been made that the school was not to CONTRADICT THE TEACHINGS OF THE IMAMS IN THE MOSQUES.
WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON . ARE WE REALLY GOING TO ALLOW RELIGIOUS BIGOTS TO CHANGE THE HISTORY OF EUROPE PURELY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE THE TRUTH.
Certainly i have known victims of the Holocaust and they have told me their stories. I had a good education which taught about the 2nd world war and its horrors. My father fought in the 2nd world war. i have read books seen documentaries etc regarding the holocaust. I know friends who have been to the Concentration camps as they had family memebers who had died in the camps.
So what are we to do.
Deal with these Grossly Prejudiced Religious Bigots and protect society from this abhorrent bogotry.?
Or not offend the sensibilities of these bigots as they rewrite history and impose their prejudice on the rest of us.
This religious prejudice and bigotry i find very scary and indeed frightening as the lengths these people will go to to impose their WILL and version of history on us is also frightening.
Regards david
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Deane F
The very freedom that allows you to say what you think of Imans and their teaching is exactly the same freedom that allows Imans to teach what they want.
Hate is a right - believe it or not.
Would you die for the right for all of us to hate whoever we want and as much as we want, Mike?
(I asked you a question - now don't evade or I'll call you names...!)
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Don Atkinson
Deane,
A word of advice - you're beginning to loose it mate.
Stand back from this thread for a moment or two and with a sober mind, take a careful look at how your posts have progressed over the last day or so - I don't think you'll be amused.
Freedom and freedom-of-speech go hand in hand with resposibility.
We don't have the "freedom" or the "right" to murder people. We don't have the freedom or the right to tell lies in court. Imans have the freedom and the right in England to deny the Holocaust, but not to the extent that they threaten others, including schools, who have the freedom, the right and a responsibility to teach the truth(*) about history.
I also have the freedom and the right, to make god dam sure that my children and the children of other people like me, don't have to put up with the crap and vile outbursts of these biggoted scum-bags on the outer fringes of the human race. Thank god that the police and lawyers are going to start paying these worthless bags of shite a visit.
Cheers
Don
(*) so far as we can reasonably know what is the truth.
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Deane F
Don
Thanks for the "advice". When an arch-conservative thinks I'm losing it then I know I am making progess toward a better world.
You point out that the notion of rights are linked to the notion of duty. It's a connection that few people are able to make and you ought to be commended on possessing enough sophistication to include it in your argument. But the rub is surely in the application thereof.
To suggest, however, that schools have rights, duties and responsibilities is absurd. They execute policy. How they react to the needs and wants of the community is a concern of a Minister of the Crown.
Deane
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:
The very freedom that allows you to say what you think of Imans and their teaching is exactly the same freedom that allows Imans to teach what they want.
Hate is a right - believe it or not.
Would you die for the right for all of us to hate whoever we want and as much as we want, Mike?
No need for anyone to die, Deane; it is illegal in the UK to stir up hatred on religious or racial grounds. You are free to hate all you want, just dont broadcast it or try to disseminate it. Not so sure that its a human right to hate, though.
Racial and Religious Hatred Act.I thought you where a lawyer?
And while I admire your libertarian approach, if you are indeed Jewish as you intimated above, I'm surprised you of all people have no problems with this kind of hatred.
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:
Don
Thanks for the "advice". When an arch-conservative thinks I'm losing it then I know I am making progess toward a better world.
One in which its OK to preach anti Semitism? ( Jew hatred, for the avoidance of doubt. )
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Deane
Forgive me, but I think I may have found the root of your
"style".Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Deane F
Mike
Not Jewish. Not a lawyer. Intimated that I have been considering conversion for many years to Judaism.
Have studied law.
Asked you a question. Answer it. Don't evade or I'll call you names.
Would you go war and die for the right for your countrymen to exercise their freedom to hate people? (Note that I do not think the right to hate confers rights to commit violence)
Well? You are in the military, aren't you?
Deane
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
I also have the freedom and the right, to make god dam sure that my children and the children of other people like me, don't have to put up with the crap and vile outbursts of these biggoted scum-bags on the outer fringes of the human race. Thank god that the police and lawyers are going to start paying these worthless bags of shite a visit.
Don
The Nazis thought the Jews were on the outer fringes of humanity as well. The Nazis thought the Jews were worthless bags of shite and the police certainly did pay the Jews a visit in Nazi Germany.
Comments?
Deane
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:
Comments?
Oh. I give up. You are right after all. Let these bags of shite run our lives. Who gives a Fuck.
Now, you asked for Comments, you got comments. Not carefully considered. Not my real views. But the sort of comment that you can play with.
Enjoy.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by acad tsunami
Game and Set to Deane. New balls please Don.
Posted on: 06 April 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by mike lacey:
Deane
Forgive me, but I think I may have found the root of your
"style".
Mike
Thanks for that! I love a bit of Python.
It got me thinking of what video you inspired me to remember...
I hope you get as much enjoyment out of this.
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:
Would you die for the right for all of us to hate whoever we want and as much as we want, Mike?
(I asked you a question - now don't evade or I'll call you names...!)
Sorry, Deane, I did not think this was a serious question.
Specifically, no I would not die for the right of someone else to hate. Why on earth should I? Why on earth do you think its a reasonable question, btw.
I am not aware of a "right" to hate, by the way.
I'd also ask you to consider that you might just be taking yourself a
little bit too seriously.
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Don Atkinson
Deane,
You have stated or implied that you have a right to hate people.
You have stated or implied that Holocaust-denying Imams have every right to preach that message from their mosques.
You have stated or implied that these Imams have every right to demand that British schools teach history on the basis that the Holocaust did not take place.
You have stated or implied that we all enjoy "freedom" to do whatever we dam well please.
You have stated or implied that there is no difference whatsoever between Hitler's police picking up Jews in the 1940s, and the consequences that followed; and British police (with lawyers) visiting mosques to gather evidence about suspected scumbag Imams.
Please confirm that these are your views, or feel free to correct the record if these are not your views. Your silence, or refusal to clarify your position, will be taken by me to presume that these are your views.
Acad, as usual you have not made your position clear. Given your tacit support for Deane's debating prowess, I shall presume that these are also your views unless you specifically correct the record.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Please confirm that these are your views, or feel free to correct the record if these are not your views. Your silence, or refusal to clarify your position, will be taken by me to presume that these are your views.
Don
You are welcome to take my views in whatever way you wish; based on whatever answers or lack of answers you propose.
If you are interested - actually
interested - in what I think and how I got to what I think, then I can only suggest you email me and we can enter a dialogue that is not handicapped by the exigencies of Forum discussions.
I suspect, however, that you are satisfied with your view of the world and entertain no doubts whatsoever about the rightness of your position.
I see far too many parallels between the state of realpolitik in the West and the ideologies that have driven crimes of hate in the past.
So, will you now accuse me of evasion and being a troll?
Deane
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:
So, will you now accuse me of evasion and being a troll?
Deane
If the cap fits...
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:
You are welcome to take my views in whatever way you wish; based on whatever answers or lack of answers you propose.....
So, will you now accuse me of evasion....
I have no desire to take your views in whatever way I wish. That would be pointless.
What I have written is my interpretation of what you have stated (or what you actually stated) in public. Many of the views are surprising. However, there is little point in taking part in a forum discussion if you have to clarify your views in private.
At present I am of the opinion that you do subscribe to all the views stated, but that you feel there are justifiable (but private) reasons for holding those views.
Perhaps you don't subscribe to all (or any) of the views described. Just say so, and I'll let the matter rest.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Hi Don
Deane is trolling, took me a while to work it out, as I generally see the good in most people.
Nobody could really be *that* sanctimonious, could they now?
M
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Perhaps you don't subscribe to all (or any) of the views described. Just say so, and I'll let the matter rest.
Don
I don't hold all of the views you describe. I
could say that to
some extent I hold all of them - but that there are several qualifications for those views. (BTW, by "qualification" I mean a balancing idea etc.)
However, you tend toward a mechanistic approach to these things and I tend toward an organic/non-reductive approach so I doubt that I could ever bring you to appreciate the structure that underlies the surface of my opinions.
The invitation to email me and discuss this in private is because I simply will
not go very deeply into
why I believe the things I do because of the public nature of this discussion.
Deane
Posted on: 07 April 2007 by Deane F
quote:
Originally posted by mike lacey:
Hi Don
Deane is trolling, took me a while to work it out, as I generally see the good in most people.
Nobody could really be *that* sanctimonious, could they now?
M
Mike
If there is a troll on this forum, it is you.
I well remember your PM to me and the way you have treated me since I refused, by PM, to take part in your trolling game. The thread was about Windows XP and you were upset that people were posting on
your thread with stuff you didn't like.
Ring any bells, Mike?
Deane
Posted on: 08 April 2007 by Mick P
Deane
You do not have to answer Dons questions but by evading them, you lose your credibility on this forum.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 08 April 2007 by Deane F
Mick
I find that the most compelling argument against taking unsolicited advice is the strong possibility of ending up being like the person who is offering it.
But thanks all the same.
Deane
Posted on: 08 April 2007 by Mick P
Deane
A sound bite does not answer a question.
Either put up or shut up.
In my eyes at least, by not answering the questions, you are coming across as shallow.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 08 April 2007 by Deane F
Mick
From you, shallow is a compliment!
I've answered Don's questions as far as I want to answer them.
I thought you'd made some sort of New Years resolution not to post on the Forum anymore? What has happened to that heart of steel I so admire? I thought discipline and resolve were qualities taught to every public schoolboy.
Deane
Posted on: 08 April 2007 by Mick P
Deane
Bouncing an argument back does not answer the basic question, so you are losing your credibility.
It is true I am not what I once was and I admit it.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 08 April 2007 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Mick
Deane just evades. When REALLY pressed, he requests that the conversation carries on by email, which I take as an admission that he realises how he looks to the observer. He has done this tice now, making various comments and asking plenty of questions of others but not wanting to answer those asked of him.
Deane
I do not remember the PM; I do remember the thread - four years ago? Five? Was it the only PM you've ever had?
My opinion of you has nothing to do with that, however I do recall the bizarre outrage with which you greeted me accidentally spelling your name with an extra "n"; the fact that you are happy to ask what you consder to be awkward questions but refuse to answer direct questions put to you, and you gloating over a misplaced apostrophe ( even though you see no problem with making up words. )
Etc
M
