Why do I become a vegetarian?

I rather like the chef Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall's view.

He loves meat, but thinks we eat too much of it, and particularly makes the point that if at the end of racks of meat in supermarkets there we video's showing what is involved in making meat, ie. killing an animal.

Meat has become something clean, bloodless and plentyfull. But we are eating far more meat now than (perhaps) fifty years ago. Meat used to be spread out by cooking it, and then using the remainder cold, in soups, etc. and also the stock to make meals in the days after.

I think an important question is 'would you eat meat if you had to kill it yourself?'.

I know you could say, 'would you drive a car if you had to service it yourself?', but the loss of a life is not a case with that, well with most drivers anyway.

Personally my view was made by several things, the CJD situation where it became clear that beef production was immoral and unhealthy in the late 80's. I used to treat myself to one nice steak each summer, with a nice salad, I liked it, but reasoned that if I could go without it for 363 days, then doing one more day, each year was no problem. That view then spread to other red meats, so I don't eat those now.

I do eat chicken, I could kill a chicken, in fact would prefer to rear them if my life and job allowed it. Living on the edge of a modern city I think it would annoy neighbours to have even such small livestock, and I must admit, I could kill, but plucking would be a real pain.

I do think there is major problem with the lack of morality in food production. When I eat a chicken I accept one life has been lost for that to happen, however if find it absolutely repugnant that that for each chicken I eat, another newly hatched chicken has been either crushed or minced alive due to the way meat production is run in the western world now. The same for eggs, and also milk.

Male chicks, and male calves of milk producing breeds are killed immediately after hatching, or birth, as under the modern intense farming dictates that they are not economic to feed and raise. Not sure how this affects organic, free range, but it is possibly the same. Does anyone know otherwise?

I could kill a chicken, but I could not stand at a conveyor belt picking out live chicks and drop then still breathing into spinning blades, or onto another conveyor belt with basically a mangle at the end of it. The term for this job is a 'chicken sexer.'

After seeing Mr Whittingstall's programme about cheap chickens sold at Tesco being reared in standards that the RSPCA consider to be below an acceptable level of cruelty I do not shop there at all. Needless to say I don't buy from the fast food companies either.

A Belgian friend pointed out a very interesting thing about the English language, that we call the meat of an animal by a different name to the animal from which it comes. Beef - cow, pork - pig, mutton - sheep (OK, lamb is lamb), I think one source from the romantic languages, and the other from the Germanic languages. This also makes it easier to divorce what you eat from what it actually is.

So if you want to use the argument that we are hunter gatherers and omnivores, consider if you yourself could slit the throat of the animal you are consuming, rather than the brightly packaged, bloodless product that is easily available.

If you can, I don't have a problem with you eating meat, but please consider that it was once living.

Great post Jamie, fits with much of what I think.

Incidentally male dairy calves used to be sold for veal, and transported to Europe where veal is much more popular. Although the particularly crual ways of crating veal calves are now banned the transport of these young animals rasies concerns. There is now an argument for buying british veal and avoiding this happening. If people realised that british veal is now humane and purchased it a market for these animals that are a by-product of the dairy industry might be created.

Bruce

(By the way, our digestive system does not 'need' meat. The higher energy denisty of meat, especially cooked, may have had a significant effect on human evolution but it is not a biological neccesity. We eat meat now because we chose too, not for survival.)

quote:

Originally posted by luxen2:

quote:

what animal has the right to kill another animal.

when animals stop killing eachother then i will stop eating meat.

Are you being serious????

This is really ridiculous...

Human beings can decide what they eat, animals follow instinct...

I suggest all meat-eaters should visit a slaughterhouse for one day.

There is no reason for eating meat, except for the satisfaction of the tonque.

Eating meat means being involved in the process of killing.
Fine if you choose this, I dont.

www.earthlings.com

I have been to a slaughter house, i have also killed animals to eat them and I still eat meat.

If God had not meant us to eat meat, animals would not taste so nice.

Supermarkets have really served to divorce us from food production. My visiting 'townie' niece and nephew would not eat field mushrooms I had picked that morning from the pasture next door, or eggs from the chickens because they were not sure they would be safe and the eggs did not look 'clean'.

I should have wrapped them in clingfilm, obviously.

Bruce

How do people feel about using leather? Silk? How far do we take lifestyle decisions in respect of animal welfare and 'farming'?

Avole & other vegitarians, please go get a life and stop trying to turn the planet veggie.

I don't know that vegetarians are supercilious and holier than thou at all. In fact, judging from the responses on this forum, I'd say it was the meat-eaters
Only vegetarians bang on about this & are generally full of contempt for meat eaters = that is supercilious. Meat eaters are responding because of your attitude. If you stopped banging your gong, meat eaters would just get on with life.

Our digestive system doesn't need a diet containing meat at all. If it did, then billions of people worldwide are on a terrible diet. By choice, that is, before you supercilious meat eaters leap in with sarcastic comments about the nutrition of poverty.
You obviously have a seriously misinformed attitude to the ways of other peoples lives and animal digestive systems.
Humans are OMNIVORE, than means we can live & survive (in most situations) in resonanable health on an all vegetable or carnivouous diet.

Better get across to India armed with your barbecue ....
As it happens I am going to India in a few weeks. I will be mostly eating a vegetarian diet.
I always do that in India and other places for food hygiene problem avoidance, and vegetarianism is a way of life for many people in that region. Unlike veggies in this part of the world, people in India people choose to be veggie mostly because of religious beliefs, but they do not bang on & on and try to convert the carnivores.

I think that meat eaters should be shot; meat being murder and all.

quote:

Originally posted by uniti:

quote:

Originally posted by luxen2:

quote:

what animal has the right to kill another animal.

when animals stop killing eachother then i will stop eating meat.

Are you being serious????

This is really ridiculous...

Human beings can decide what they eat, animals follow instinct...

I suggest all meat-eaters should visit a slaughterhouse for one day.

There is no reason for eating meat, except for the satisfaction of the tonque.

Eating meat means being involved in the process of killing.
Fine if you choose this, I dont.

www.earthlings.com

I have been to a slaughter house, i have also killed animals to eat them and I still eat meat.

My condolescence.

I've been to a slaughter house on several occasions,. AFIACT the only problem is that residue from bloody hands really used to screw up the telephone extension.

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:


A Belgian friend pointed out a very interesting thing about the English language, that we call the meat of an animal by a different name to the animal from which it comes. Beef - cow, pork - pig, mutton - sheep (OK, lamb is lamb), I think one source from the romantic languages, and the other from the Germanic languages. This also makes it easier to divorce what you eat from what it actually is.

Maybe you need to point out to your Belgian friend that none of those words are of English origin ...

Beef from boef (old French) from bos (Latin).
Pork from porc (old French) from porcus (Latin).
Mutton from mouton (old French).

Seriously though I saw that same HWF program and would agree with his views entirely.

My other half is semi-vegitarian, she eats chicken and fish. She was 100% until we went to live in Aus and she just had to adapt, although it's better now. I tend to eat much the same as her now but I can't stand cheese so a lot of vegatarian dishes that are probably made palatable by the addition of cheese are no good to me. I take the opportunity when we either eat out or are visiting friends & family to have some meat.

Scott

quote:

Originally posted by Mike-B:
Avole & other vegitarians, please go get a life.......

I'm trying to get a longer life. Does that count?

Seriously I was in my dentist's the other day - he was scraping round my teeth - and generally chatting about getting older and health. (Why are conversations with dentists so one sided?). We spoke about vegetarianism. He said "I hate my vegetarian patients. They all have broken teeth - all those nuts and stuff - and they never seem to lose them. And of course they keep coming back for check-ups: they seem to live for ever."
Don sunny downtown York

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
I think that meat eaters should be shot; meat being murder and all.

A very reasonable balance viewpoint - should we include people who eat innocent vegetables too?

I enjoy a small portion of meat twice a day, three vegetables and two servings of fruit.

My youngest daughter is a vegetarian.

Each to his own.

Avole, I fully agree that ths forum is a should be an exchange of views .... so why don't you practice the same ?

My original post on this subject was my point of view on vegetarianism and SOME vegetarians that have passed my life. Please do not try to tell me what and how to react to my life experiences or force your opinion over mine, as your sir are not practicing your own words on the intent of this forum an exchange of views & free speech

& please also do not take it on yourself to correct my spelling, that is not only condescending but also once again supercilious, these forums are not exactly high level academia requiring correct spelling & grammar.

My view on this remains as I posted ......
I am not a fan of the vegetarian way of life as its not as nature intended, but if that is your bag, go for it and be happy.
But I do not like to have vegetarians affecting my choices .............


And for what its worth, I used to work in a food related industry, I have worked on equipment in slaughterhouses and meat processing plants and IMO it is an ugly part of life. But I do not have problems knowing where & how my limited meat consumption comes from. I support various farming orgs that encourage animal friendly husbandry, open range rearing & where possible organic feeding methods.

I have a life.

With no killing.

My daughter was vegetarian for a number of years but then one day I was frying some bacon and she became corrupted...

Hugh Fernley-Whitingstall has been mentioned in previous postings and I can recommend his "River cottage Meat Book". There are a few recipes but the main topics are about how meat is produced, why animals became domesticated (because they had a better life under humans than if they existed in the wild) and how we should respect animals and treat meat as a luxury foodstuff, not as a mere commodity to be produced by whatever means necessary to reduce cost.

I personally really enjoy a good vegetarian meal and whenever attending conference dinners I would always go for the veggie option, mainly because there were far fewer being made for the occasion and I felt more care was taken over their preparation.

Although I suspect some vegetarians may well live longer than the norm, surely this is more to do with them being more concerned with their diet than the average Joe. The important thing is to eat a balanced diet, without too much salt or saturated fat, and plenty of fruit and vegetables.

There's no getting away from the fact that good meat, well cooked and seasoned, tastes wonderful and is one of life's great pleasures. If you wish to forgo it that's your choice, but I can't accept that using animals for food is bad and eating them does you any harm.

"Human beings can decide what they eat, animals follow instinct..."

-luxen2

Human beings are animals. Human beings follow intincts.

Now excuse me while I throw a few lobsters in the pot.

quote:

Human beings are animals. Human beings follow intincts.

Not really.

Human beings "behave" like animals.

Poor lobsters...and very funny...haha..

Folly are the wise
where ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy.

Yes, really.

Am not a vegetarian, but can understand the logic. That said, what is more harmful to the broader animal (non-human) population - husbandry for consumption or industrial pollutants?

quote:

Originally posted by ScottC:

Maybe you need to point out to your Belgian friend that none of those words are of English origin ...

Beef from boef (old French) from bos (Latin).
Pork from porc (old French) from porcus (Latin).
Mutton from mouton (old French).

Scott

That was exactly what he pointed out, I just did not remember his full explanation. He is French speaking Belgian. Thanks for giving the detailed derivation for the words.

I noted that someone said about vegetarians trying to force their views on others, I certainly don't think that is limited to vegetarians, how about Christians who knock at your door in order to try and get you to join congregation, or many threads on here that say 'you should listen to this'.

Vegetarianism, and the reaction against it just seems to get people on their high horses. It is a choice, and if someone makes that choice it is up to them.

If someone asks, as in the title of this thread, what validity is there in this choice, then there are reasoned answers that can be made for that choice.

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:

A Belgian friend pointed out a very interesting thing about the English language, that we call the meat of an animal by a different name to the animal from which it comes. Beef - cow, pork - pig, mutton - sheep (OK, lamb is lamb), I think one source from the romantic languages, and the other from the Germanic languages. This also makes it easier to divorce what you eat from what it actually is.

Not all mutton is sheep, or there would be none of either

Come on guys, let's be fair..
If you don't want to read at least half the scribes on this thread defending vegetarianism and criticising meat eating, don't read a thread with the word vegetarian in the title! It's not quite the same as somebody banging on your door on a Sunday morning, now is it?

One can only assume for some it is still a sensitive topic, the raising of which stirs up inner unresolved conflicts....

Don
Overcast downtown York

Avole, re my QUOTE not as nature intended

Nature - evolution - the almighty - fate - whatever - has equipped us with a digestion system for an omnivorous diet.
Felines are monotonous carnivores (diet is only meat), bovines are herbivores.
Feed a cat with only vegetable produce and it dies, ditto meat for bovines. We Homo Sapiens however will survive - maybe not very healthily - as nature has equipped us in its design intent for a mixed diet. Therefore I do not believe it can be denied that we are omnivores requiring a mixed & varied diet and that is (was) intended to include protein in the form of meat.

Given that Homo Sapiens evolved in the central/east Africa region and that we have not physically evolved much since then - such as a bovine stomach, again - I do not believe it can be denied that we are omnivores.
The conditions in east Africa force an omnivorous diet even today, I lived there. Locally grown fruit & grain is seasonal. Dietary problems caused by limited or a monotonous mealie-pap is endemic, the only source of protein is meat and is frequently the only option to avoid health issues. This brings up issues of poaching and bushmeat, but I ain't going down that goat trail. The only change in modern times is our brain power has allowed us to develop new fruit vegetable & grain types that extend seasons, we gather & transport foods from another regions even the other hemisphere, and once gathered we can store food for long periods. Like east Africans, I do not believe it possible for European vegetarians to have a diet or at least a healthy diet without these modern food production methods.

Thanks to our brains and food production evolution over time we have a choice, meat, veg, or a mix,
Whatever, if that is your bag, go for it and be happy.
But I do not like to have vegetarians - add to that I do not like anyone - affecting my personal choices in my life.

Adios Amigos, see you in another post subject

quote:

Originally posted by luxen2:
I have a life.

With no killing.

Are plants not living organisms, then? If they are, you must be very hungry.