Why do I become a vegetarian?

Ok, a little off topic but nevertheless associated with my earlier post about saving Australia sheep from 'Live Export'.

I am not trying to turn anyone into a Vegetarian by posting this.

We're all individuals and capable of making informed decisions.

This is just to raise awareness of the grotesque practice of
' Mulesing ' and their fate once they're no longer needed.

When no longer needed they become part of Australia's
'Live Export Program '

This is a video I have never seen before and is incredibly disturbing, frustrating, and so so sad.

The video is in the centre of the page with 'Pink' standing up
for the plight of these helpless animals abused by us.

https://secure.peta.org/site/A...ge=UserAction&id=599

Please help.

I grew up on a farm [in Herefordshire, UK] and we ran sheep, so I know about fly strike.

The British method of preventing it is harmless and involves trimming the wool from the area round the anus. No suffering, and no stress. British sheep are no longer a major source of wool as the world wool commodity price ensures that it is more expensive to sheer the sheep than the wool is worth to sell.

We live a mad, bad, cruel world.

ATB from George

quote:

I do not like anyone - affecting my personal choices in my life.

I find that virtually all my personal choices in life are affected by others. It is a nice and civilised way to live. It is the "price of entry" of living in a society and of being in relationships.

I ackowledge that I am perhaps being a quite disingenuous with this comment and that this is possibly not what you meant at all . If so, sincere apologies.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by avole:
If people worked in abattoirs they wouldn't eat meat.

There has been a lot of research done on stress in animals caused by conditions in abattoirs. The problem is that stress in animals means tougher meat. It also indicates that animals are more aware of their surroundings than some give credit for.

Improving their nutrition, health and safety? Rubbish! It's not done for reasons that have anything to do with the animal, solely for reasons of economics and taste. The human race has only ever known how to exploit the other species with which it shares the planet and does little to care for them. [QUOTE]



avole,

Point 1 is so very wrong. The opposite is true perhaps.

Point 2 is partly correct. Stress affects the process of rigor mortis, which in turn affects the tenderness, texture and taste of the meat. Unfortunately stress does not only occur at abbatoirs. Sheep being bothered by the pet dogs of folk out walking being a prime example.

Point 3 is also only partly correct. All business is driven by the desire/need to make money. However in the case of abbatoirs, there is substantial legislation in place protecting animals intended for human consumption. This legislation outlines treatment of the animal from the farm, during transit, whilst awaiting slaughter and during the slaughter process itself. It outlines time limits for how long the animal can go without food or water for example, and the duty to provide these items along with suitable bedding materials at the abbatoir. This legislation is policed in abbatoirs by inspectors and veterinarians. Whilst the motives of the farmer and the abbatoir owner may be based in profit, they know full well an animal treated gently and with compassion will taste better and therefore be more valuable. As long as animals are going to be used for food, all we can ask for, nay demand, is that they are treated humanely.

At the end of the day man is an animal. And unfortunately it is not only other animals that mankind exploits. I for one would rather see an end to the suffering inflicted by one man against another, than worry whether eating meat or not is moral.

Regards,
Steve.

I am a member of PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals and I find eating too much greenery gives me chronic flatulence and my Carbon Footprint increases exponentially. As a parent I have real concerns that I may be impacting unduly on the ozone layer and in this way storing up problems for my children and my grand children.

At this moment in time most of my meals are stews and suchlike based around root vegetables, a goodly selection of pulses, grains, chillies and a few other spices. I am mostly a vegetarian because the food tastes good and I am lucky enough to have the time available to cook and prepare such meals. Although I also have the courage to hunt, catch, kill and butcher my own fish (mainly trout when I get the chance) for the pot and to be honest the thought of killing something does not bother me at all.

quote:

Man can inflict on other men what he wants, that doesn't bother me because we're sentient beings and know what we're doing to each other.

Dear Avole,

Please do think about what your have written here.

It appears to give carte blanche to those who inflict holocaust, peadophile crime, rape, and murder [and so on], because the both victim and malefactor are as you put it sentient beings.

I am not going to relate this to the treatment of animals for food, fur, dairy, or wool production, [or indeed any use by humans of animals], as it seems to me your view has a very profoundly disturbing apsect.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to clarify if what you wrote is actually what you meant?

George

If you cannot see what is so disturbing about the statemenet you made, then I hope you are part of a tiny minority, for I never want to see a government in power that cleaves to the view you seem unable to deny holding.

ATB from George

Avole if you ate meat you might have a thicker skin and not come across as a self righteous prig. Dickhead.

well I reduce my eating meat Not at breakfast or most lunches. Sometimes just pasta for dinner if I've had meat in a noon sandwich. Comes out to a minor portion of one meal a day. I remember eating huge steaks now it's just a small portion. If I cook a chicken it lasts me 4 meals.

Having a couple beers at night....who wants to eat? not me.

I've worked all my life in conservation, so I guess I'm a fur and feathers, tree hugging sort.

I'm not a vegetarian however. More to the point I shoot. I see shooting and eating as a key role in the maintenance of the totally unatural but historical range of habitats we see in this country.

Ethically, I've no problem with eating meat, providing that it's been humanely reared and killed or is required for the management of habitat.

Ethically, I've no problem with folk being vegetarian and passionate about it.

I do think one thing is important however. In conservation, I cringe at eco-warriors who preach at people. This gets peoples backs up and turns them towards morons like Jeremy Clarkson. I think whatever we care about, if we pursue the point logically and in a friendly manner, we'll win more converts to our respective causes. It's something I'm educating MikeS on, on another thread...he's coming on, bless him

Yes, plants live too.

But I CHOOSE to harvest an eggplant over cutting throats.

I am out too.

quote:

Originally posted by avole:
Steve, I think you've proved all my points, if by default.

Avole,
How can I prove your point by suggesting the opposite is true? I stated the areas where I partly agree with you, but I have not proven your point.

There are many aspects of animal welfare I am uncomfortable with, not relating to abbatoirs let me add, but let me assure you that the UK is among the best at providing animals with 'rights'. I worked in abbatoirs as an inspector for over 20 years and I can assure you that the abbatoir staff take the welfare of the animals seriously, not least because a failure to comply can result in serious sanctions. So even though their motivation for welfare may not be for the purest reasons, the end result is a good standard of welfare.
BTW, have you ever been in an abbatoir avole? I doubt it. 'Driving them forward to their slaughter' does read like an emotional, rather than an observed comment.

quote:

Originally posted by avole:
Man can inflict on other men what he wants, that doesn't bother me because we're sentient beings and know what we're doing to each other.........

Good god man, are you stupid?
What about the victim?
How can you be happy for a man to kill, injure, maim or even inflict pain on another human being but not on an animal? Is that person not as much a victim as the animal?
That statement is one of the most ridiculous and disturbing things I have read in years. You have justified every violation of human rights in history. You idiot!

quote:

Originally posted by avole:
Your third point is frankly laughable and only proves mine

How can I prove your point by outlining a few of the welfare measures in place? Measures you do not recognise in your original post.


Steve.

Are the vegetarians here vegan or just plain vanilla veggies?
I would love to know the thoughts on milk and cheese production - I mean, how do you feel about animals being forced into pregnancy and then having their infants removed from them (and disposed of) just so they can be milked ad nauseum to keep us in milk and cheese? different? not in my book. 'I live a life where no killing of animals takes place' Are you absolutely 100% certain of that fact - because I find the claim to be utterly ridiculous. To live your life without ever using animal by products would be nigh on impossible. After all - meat could easily be seen as a by product from the leather industry - I'm willing to bet you wear shoes? What are we supposed to do with the waste meat from the production of those? Throw it away? A little reality would be useful. If you choose to be a vegetarian then fine - please enjoy. Just dont try and tell the world that it is wrong to be otherwise. It is not wrong - just different to what you choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve2701:
Are the vegetarians here vegan or just plain vanilla veggies?
I would love to know the thoughts on milk and cheese production - I mean, how do you feel about animals being forced into pregnancy and then having their infants removed from them (and disposed of) just so they can be milked ad nauseum to keep us in milk and cheese? different? not in my book.

I wonder how many people here give money to charities, you know the type who give just a few pounds every now and then, or are 'proper givers' who refrain from buying hi-fi, don't buy new clothes, own cars, etc, and give all but what they need to eat to charities.

Your argument implies that doing what little you can is hypocritical, doing what you can is exactly that.

Jamie,
Not what I meant at all, but whatever.
Your post does imply though, and perhaps this is something of the nub of all of this - that being vegitarian makes you somehow superior to those that choose not to be? If so - fine and as I said in my post - just carry on - enjoy. I was merely pointing out that there are shades of being vegitarian. Being a meat eater is no more correct or incorrect than choosing to eat no meat. Personal ethics are just that - personal. You say (or at least imply)that doing something is better than doing nothing. I simply dont see being vegitarian as being in any way better -for the reasons above, but these are my personal thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by luxen2:
Yes, plants live too.

But I CHOOSE to harvest an eggplant over cutting throats.

Of course, we all choose where to draw the line about which species we are willing to kill/maim/enslave to sustain ourselves. You also choose to call what you do harvesting, but if you also happen to eat carrots or broccoli (for example), it's still just plain old killing.

But hey, enjoy all that plump purple reproductive tissue. I'm sure the plant's whole reason for living is to make it just for you to eat.

As soon as i saw this thread i thought here we go into the never ending abyss where friends will fall out and also nasty comments will be thrown about. We all have our own reasons for what we eat and it should never be thrown in some ones face that their choice is wrong it is like different religions. I for one am a vegitarian and have been for twenty eight years, my mrs is also veggie and has been for fourteen years but our reasons for this are poles apart she has come to the conclusion that she does not need meat in her diet, i became veggie because i could not get on with the taste of meat/fish or poultry BUT i was a farmers son and i am a keen shooting man to boot.I will only shoot what will be eaten by my family and friends and as with 99.9% of shooting men the kill must go to the table. My seven week old son will be on liquid food for a short time but as soon as he is ready i will feed him meat and when he is old enough he will make his own informed decisions about the situation. vegetarianism with regard to meat eating is still in its infancy and tends to be pushed on to people by ways of propaganda by various organisations and in a proper debate without bad mouthing and frayed tempers cannot stand
With regard to dairy products including eggs i love them

Deadlifter

You are far too balanced to be allowed to post in here!

Cheers

Jim

Never been accused of that before so don`t go spreading vicious rumours

A questionn I always ask vegetarians is 'how do you square your actions with the ecological impacts of being veggie'.

Ok, on one side of things it's a more trophically efficient way to eat

BUT

In countries like the UK, where there is no wilderness, the landscape is defined by agricultural practice. The loss of grazing species would have massive, genuinely massive impact on the upland ecosystems of the land.

What's your views?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve2701:
Jamie,
Not what I meant at all, but whatever.
Your post does imply though, and perhaps this is something of the nub of all of this - that being vegitarian makes you somehow superior to those that choose not to be? If so - fine and as I said in my post - just carry on - enjoy. I was merely pointing out that there are shades of being vegitarian. Being a meat eater is no more correct or incorrect than choosing to eat no meat. Personal ethics are just that - personal. You say (or at least imply)that doing something is better than doing nothing. I simply dont see being vegitarian as being in any way better -for the reasons above, but these are my personal thoughts.

I cook red meat for guests, I simply make the effort for what is important to me.

Feeling superior, no, but concerned about how meat has been sanitised and now can be seen as something separate from animals and the killing that is involved in its sale.

On the NFL thread there was a picture of a pig spit roast, and that to me seems more 'honest' in a way. I do not think that those who eat meat should have the head of the animal there on the plate, but it is just the plastic bloodless packaging so common that I have a problem with.

I knew this thread would contentious, interesting, but prone to getting people's hackles up.

So what are your views on the ecological impacts Jamie? The loss of our uplands as we know them.

quote:

o Animals suffer from pain and fear just as much as a human being does.
o Animals are capable of logical thought. Chicken, pigs and sheep are far more intelligent than small children.

When I read this, the logic seems to suggest that we should instead eat small children? ( )

Seriously, though, I am not a vegetarian but I do respect those who choose to be. It is their choice. I'll admit though that some of the reasons given for being/becoming a vegetarian do challenge me.

I grew up on a farm. As a child, I vividly remember those (butchering/slaughtering) days in Fall. Many aunts/uncles/neighbors would come over early in the morning and we'd spend a long day processing chickens, ducks, geese etc. Afterward, my mom would not have any poultry in any meal for at least a week but we were always thankful that our freezer's were full for the coming winter. My job was usually to catch them and then help where needed throughout the day. The same process occurred, but on a much smaller scale, when we would butcher one steer or pig per year.

I had a connection with these animals as I helped feed and care for these animals throughout the year. I saw them being born and also saw the end. As much as I didn't care for those butchering days I eventually grew up to understand that this is life. It isn't always pretty. I always had a soft spot though for the cows or heifers/steers as I considered the herd like my own pets. They all had names. I was sad when I would find out who the "chosen ones" were.

But sometimes a cow / calf would get sick and die. Other times a fox, coyote, or our own dog would kill a chicken from time to time. Often, chickens will kill the weakest one among them (especially if they see a blood spot). On a farm you constantly witness life and death.

This is how my ancestors survived and I think it taught me many value lessons about life too. I think it would do many people good if they had to grow their own food and provide sustenance on their tables that was provided by their own hands.

What is most insulting to me today concerning food is the abundance of processed/man altered foods that pervade our supermarkets.

Regards,
Doug

Mercy, mercy me, no cares about the ecology.