Why do I become a vegetarian?

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:
When I read this, the logic seems to suggest that we should instead eat small children? ( )

This is a rather dramatic reference. I regret having written that.

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:
So what are your views on the ecological impacts Jamie? The loss of our uplands as we know them.

If I want to save the countryside then I think sponsorship of The National Trust is a better way to support them, rather than eating red meat.

This sounds very like the argument about the Common Agricultural Policy which greatly subsidises the French rural farmers who are less efficient than the German farmers, but does sustain an incredibly beautiful part of the continent.

It also sounds too much like finding a specific case where we would be worse off, balanced against an overall improvement.

As for much of the rest of the world, meat production is far more ecologically damaging, as more woodland/forest needs to be cleared to generate protein from meat, as opposed to protein from vegetable products.

I can say that I am not going to post in this thread again, it is starting to be nit picking about certain points as opposed to views on if people are happy about eating meat or not.

If you want to support the ecology of the British and Irish countryside support the gamekeepers,wildfowlers,deerstalkers and all the shooting and fishing men. These truly are the conservationists, men who know the true impact of what is happening to the land having spent their life involved in the field/woods and the foreshores, passing the knowledge of these areas on for future reference as well as living off the land ecologically

I'm tolerant enough to accept veggie as well as meat eaters. I really don't like aggressive, arrogant proselising by either side. Mostly the veggies, tbh.

And the best people for conservation of the Countryside are the MoD. Look at Salisbury Plain. Beautiful.

Look Frogsfoot,Cowslip, Orchid, 500lb bomb, handgrenade!

I'm not hostile towards either camp either, and wasn't nitpicking Jamie...genuinely just keen to discuss this.

I'll be guarded in my comments regarding who's best to offer conservation - to be honest, farmers and the MoD do a great job under the guidance of the excellent Natural England. Fishermen...hmmm, not sure about that, but it's not the point here.

The point that interests me is: english upland areas have been grazed for generations and produced the nations great open spaces - the national park suite. Now, if ethically the move would be towards vegetarianism then we'd see the decline of livestock farms and upland areas scrubbing up, the landscape changing and biodiversity plummeting. This would be a massive loss to the nation...as would be the loss of all the historical breeds.

At the moment, Natural England work with farmers to introduce ancient breeds which selectively graze, and are leading to more diverse upland areas...all this would be lost.

From my personal perspective, this is why I'm not veggie. I see in countries like the UK agriculture as being central to the maintenance of it's ecological landscape.

Globally, I can also see that deforestation for cheap beef is a major issue.

...I'm not saying it's simple, but the effect on the UK's biodiversity is very real.

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
Look Frogsfoot,Cowslip, Orchid, 500lb bomb, handgrenade!

...in a rather large area pretty much untouched for >100 years.

Why would human beings eat these stuffs. Apologies in advance for some disturbing pictures!

Not relevant to most here I would think ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:

I'll be guarded in my comments regarding who's best to offer conservation - to be honest, farmers and the MoD do a great job under the guidance of the excellent Natural England. Fishermen...hmmm, not sure about that, but it's not the point here.

The point that interests me is: english upland areas have been grazed for generations and produced the nations great open spaces - the national park suite. Now, if ethically the move would be towards vegetarianism then we'd see the decline of livestock farms and upland areas scrubbing up, the landscape changing and biodiversity plummeting. This would be a massive loss to the nation...as would be the loss of all the historical breeds.

Ahh. The old argument about unfarmed areas turning to scrubland, which farmers like to trot out as part of their stance as so-called guardians of the british countryside.

So once these areas turn to "scrub", what happens then? In a very short period of time, trees begin to spring up, the scrubland is deprived of light, and in a couple of hundred years we end up with a truly natural landscape for most of this country of deciduous forest. Yes, we lose much of the open grasslands (what little there is left after the ravages of intensive agriculture) but we gain a different range of wildlife.

I undersand and accept that farming is an industry and intensive methods are needed if we're to compete with overseas farmers. But let's not pretend farmers are any more concerned about ecology than the rest of us. Similarly, the hunting and fishing set (the latter of which I'm a member of) help preserve the special type of environment which enables them to carry out their sport and may or may not benefit the local ecology.

Decidous forest would not return to much upland country for many, many generations because the topsoil has been lost and acidified by heathland plants (and the loss of original forestry). Scrubland is a true description of what would follow for most areas. These landscapes have been altered by man for generations, not just by current farming.

The high ungrazed wilds of Scotland see a profusion of wild deer, these have no natural predator and then need to be culled to prevent them dying of starvation. Deer also destroy new areas of woodland, any planting has to be rigorously protected.

Upland areas need 'management' in all sorts of ways. I don't paint farmers as altruistic protectors of the environment but livestock farming of wild areas in Britain is part of the landscape that so many appreciate and value. Looks at the walls and barns of the Dales outside my window for example. Farming generates income that means these structures are maintained, access tracks are kept open, gates and stiles repaired. Livestock farming is the livelihood for communities in these wild areas, and rich in culture and tradition.

Unfarmed landscapes would be different, in some sense they would be 'better' for being more natural, but they would be quite different to what we are used to-and would not support rural communities as they do now.

Bruce

I agre with much of what you posted Bruce, but disagree that scrub would end up "In most areas". I think you're only really referring to upland areas; nevertheless the land would indeed return to its natural state, i.e. free of man's influence, not necessarily returning to what it was hundreds of years ago. And I did state it would take a long time.

quote:

The high ungrazed wilds of Scotland see a profusion of wild deer, these have no natural predator and then need to be culled to prevent them dying of starvation. Deer also destroy new areas of woodland, any planting has to be rigorously protected.

So, if deer were left without interference, they would naturally be limited by lack of food.

I am not suggesting I would particularly want a totally "natural" landscape to develop in the more picturesque parts of the UK which it seems you have the privilege of living in, but certainly in my neck of the woods intensive farming has produced vast tracts of barren fields that have zero aesthetic merit and are devoid of wildlife. When a local farm recently changed hands and a large field was left fallow for four years it was amazing to see how quickly it became populated with all manner of plants and animals.

Mat and I specifically talk about upland areas because these are not generally used for intensive farming or arable use.

The wild deer example I use to ilustrate that the idea of reverting some areas to completely natural un-managed landscapes is far less simple than it appears. These ecosystems have been irreversibly altered-for example by removing the top-end predators. The deer population would self regulate eventually, but not in the truly 'natural' way where predation at least partly regulates numbers rather than starvation. The deer would also destroy vegetation.

The upland areas are no longer totally wild either-they are resources for water and indeed energy production too for example. The idea we can just revert these areas to the wild is a fantasy I think-unless we radically depopluate them.

As for intensive farming of lowland areas, I totally agree that these have reduced biodiversity.

Bruce

I used to be a veggie for the usual hi-falutin' reasons then a couple of years ago couldn't think of a reason to not eat meat, being an omnivore and all that plus I daresay vegetables would prefer to live on if asked nicely. It was the bacon sandwich that clinched it.

Oh, and -

"What was the reason for his birth?
Why was he placed upon this earth?"

There is no reason. Or point. And that's not a bad thing.

OK, I said I would not post again, but I will say for anyone thinking of becoming a vegetarian that bacon is the hardest thing to give up, especially smoked bacon. Not only do you know how good it tastes, but it smells just as good as it tastes (unlike coffee), and I really miss it as an addition between the layers in lasagne (try it if you are a meat eater).

As one who eats poultry, I have been told that there is turkey cured and smoked in the same way as bacon.

Apologies to Mat, I misunderstood the thrust of your argument regarding the countryside.

I did start a thread on recipes on another forum, perhaps it would be a good thread on here too, for vegetarians and meat eaters alike.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:

I'll be guarded in my comments regarding who's best to offer conservation - to be honest, farmers and the MoD do a great job under the guidance of the excellent Natural England. Fishermen...hmmm, not sure about that, but it's not the point here.

The point that interests me is: english upland areas have been grazed for generations and produced the nations great open spaces - the national park suite. Now, if ethically the move would be towards vegetarianism then we'd see the decline of livestock farms and upland areas scrubbing up, the landscape changing and biodiversity plummeting. This would be a massive loss to the nation...as would be the loss of all the historical breeds.

Ahh. The old argument about unfarmed areas turning to scrubland, which farmers like to trot out as part of their stance as so-called guardians of the british countryside.

So once these areas turn to "scrub", what happens then? In a very short period of time, trees begin to spring up, the scrubland is deprived of light, and in a couple of hundred years we end up with a truly natural landscape

Hang on you lot...my point's being lost a bit here and we're going off thread. We're miles off thread now...but anyroad

I've spent most of my life working for conservation agencies, so I'm not naive about farmers being whiter than white.

The argument above, doesn't stack up. I've never said it's about trying to get 'wilderness' back. It's just the fact that grazing of the uplands has provided the habitat we now have...blanket bogs, acidic grassland, heathland etc etc.

If we stop this grazing, the areas will scrub up, but what we get will be something of a lottery given a)the use of these areas for recreation and b)the amount of invasive species we now have.

My point is just that grazing has provided the UK with a decent mosaic of upland habitat. Farming practice has helped shaped this...that's all. So the point is just how, vegetarianism could impact on upland habitat.

I'm not defending farmers...lots of rogues who have milked cap. Mostly large lowland farms though I think.

To get it back on track ..........
All opinions are right, your opinion no matter how wrong is a right in a free society ....

I too am a conversationalist, I support most country activities, including the idiots who want to charge around on horses making so much noise to chase a fox, 90% of which are fit & wise enough to avoid them.
Farming has changed the British landscape and will continue to change it and many other things, GM crops will be a fact of life one day, like or not, unless you stop humans breeding or we wipe them all out with a nuclear mutual destruction game.

I am happy say that when Britain reverts thru scrub & back to broad leaf forest I will be able to munch on berries, fungi, squirrels & deer, the vegetarians will have to change their diet or DIE.

There its back on track ....... lower head below parapet .......