Beethoven and Chopin

quote:

Chopin is a man who was consumed by his physical condition

Mike, there may be some truth to this but I would restate this as "Chopin was a man who was consumed by his "human" condition.". I think this applies to any great composer, writer, artist etc.

The music of all these great composers is so real, personal and lasting to those who spend time with it simply because it is authentic. Another human being is sharing something honestly with you that you can relate to but cannot or need not put into words. These composers faced life and eventually death and times of joy and times of sadness or sickness etc. just like we do. What is unique is that they found a medium in which they could perfectly relate and express these feelings in a wordless context unaffected by time and culture.

Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Schumann, Scriabin, to name just a few, were all examples of composers that suffered from some form of physical affliction. They all expressed themselves in different ways but deep down it comes from the same source. People with perfect, happy lives generally tend to write very boring, meaningless music. These people merely translated something from their personal lives and the political and social events happening during their lives and told us about it. Everyone has and will experience similar human emotions and if they appreciate life will somehow relate.

Regards,
Doug

Well put Florestan, but the thing that struck me in particular last night was how personal the Chopin is, whereas the Beethoven Symphony No. 3 rises above the personal, and in the final movement, introduces a new music.

Both composers are so stunning in their originality, and approach music from quite different directions. Two different new musics, one right on the heels of another. Berlioz is the only other composer so original in my experience, for this tiny sliver of time Beethoven and Chopin occupy.

At the time, originality was not often manifest.

Few achieve that level of success in their music.

Mike,
Agreed. I know what you are saying about the intimacy found in the music of Chopin. I don't think their are very many notes he wrote that I somehow haven't played with my own fingers. It is hard to play and get right but occasionally when you do get there you come into a magic world that you never want to leave. Their is no other piano music writing like it and Chopin wrote almost exclusively for the piano. It was the perfect medium for him.

In the big picture though I have found that when I play Beethoven solo piano works or his chamber music that I experience a similar intimacy as well. It is no longer above or removed from the personal or the individuals state or being. The difference is only then in the character of Chopin compared to Beethoven for instance. Two very different personalities.

One thing to note that of all the big composers they were mostly all pianists/keyboardists first and foremost. Their original thoughts and ideas were most likely penned and created on a piano / keyboard. Playing a piano as an individual compared to a group of 50-60 individuals as a group does change things.

The symphonies, by their very nature, tend to create the bigger picture on their own but strangely enough, when I hear/play Liszt's Piano Transcriptions, for example, of these very same works on the piano alone I immediately connect with the human struggle and find the intimacy returns. This is just me and would expect others to have different views on this. The same can be said of any other composer for me. My ears have been trained for solo or smaller scale chamber music especially on a piano and strings. I loose my way generally with larger scale symphonies (excluding Beethoven) and am really not drawn to this genre on its own (other than the concertos etc).

Once you are satisfied with where you are at with Beethoven and Chopin I'd encourage you to slowly dip your toe into the music of Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Liszt, Brahms, Grieg and the other great Romantic composers. Robert Schumann is especially an interesting character and I love his music. It baffles me as to why more people do not listen to it or are familiar with it. As for creativity and imagination he is one of a kind too.

Regards,
Doug

Florestan, yes a prelude is much more intimate than a symphony, after all look how many are involved in creating these.

From my studies, I would say Chopin is the first to rise to Beethoven's music of a new character. It is interesting how divergent their musical results are, and equally effective.

Like you, I find piano music can be more penetrating and insightful than music for a large group of performers. But each takes you to a different musical world.

You never know when a composer will turn his face to you and reveal intention so convincingly that it makes an indelible impression.

The Beethoven has fugues, absent in the Chopin. Perhaps more important to the ear, the Beethoven is chock full of joy, absent in the Chopin.

Starting with Mozart, all the great composers were troubled souls, nothing like a bout of syphilis* to spark the creativity.

* replace with insecurity / jealousy / deafness / drug use / poverty / mental instability / arguments with political establishment, or any combination of these, where appropriate.

Chopin's preludes certainly have heart-on-sleeve Romantic darkness in them, but there is a transcendental element as well - staying with the preludes, Demidenko (on Onyx) brings that out beautifully, making the relationship with Bach more obvious than anyone else (at the risk of pulling the music apart - he takes a very interventionist approach).

Happy listening,

EJ

quote:

The Beethoven has fugues, absent in the Chopin. Perhaps more important to the ear, the Beethoven is chock full of joy, absent in the Chopin.

Mike, I'm sorry but I could not disagree more. Spending much, much more time with either composer will certainly (or should) shed some light on this erroneous impression of yours. Chopin did write a small fugue but this is not the point. Chopin knew intimately all of Bach's 48 and his writing clearly and directly benefitted from what he learnt from studying them. For example, study the Mazurka's and you will experience some fine counterpoint. The problem is most people wouldn't know this as the writing always seems so seamless and perfect. Chopin was a perfectionist beyond belief and you cannot write such perfect music without understanding counterpoint.

I will echo EJS somewhat by stating that all the great composers were troubled souls but I'm not sure I would limit this from Mozart on. Bach and Haydn were human beings too. Beethoven clearly has more fist waving and questions about the struggles in life more than you can imagine. Some joy too but this is not the overwhelming effect of his character. This is what I especially enjoy about Beethoven. There is joy to be found in Chopin as well, however, being no different than Beethoven his greatest music is poetry about life and the struggle as well. Much of it is not party music. If it were, I certainly wouldn't be interested in it at all. The most compelling and profound art always involves themes and tensions that aren't necessarily pretty or comfortable.

I would really encourage you to become familiar with a broader scope of these two composers. If you wish I can go further and give specific examples as to why your statement isn't entirely representative of these two composers.

Regards,
Doug

Florestan, I've just been writing impressions after listening to Chopin's Preludes and Beethoven's Eroica symphony, nothing broader in scope than that.

I love the Chopin Preludes, but I wouldn't characterize them as joyful, while the Beethoven Symphony is tremendously joyful and uplifting. It's not a value judgement, I wouldn't be without either work.

I took a month off listening to classical and wanted to jot down some impressions of the first two CDs I listened to. That's how this thread started.

Mike

A few years ago, I came across a lovely book called "Chopin, The Man and His Music" by James Huneker. I have a lot of Polish blood flowing in my veins, and I found the book indispensable.

Best,
BBM

Hello CFMF. I have done a good bit of reading about both Beethoven and Chopin, but will look into obtaining a copy of the Huneker.

I consider Chopin to be Beethoven's equal in every way, and Beethoven to be unsurpassed. The world of sound each inhabits is, however, remarkably different.

I am engaged in a project of sorts. For a circumscribed list of works that include the Beethoven Symphonies and the Chopin Preludes, I am memorizing all the themes with the aid of a Dictionary of Themes and the scores.

If successful, one fine day I may find this music instantly recognizable in seconds, from any point, including where I find myself in the work.

Old men need hobbies, and one that expends so many hours so enjoyably, with minimal outlay seems attractive at the moment :-)

Mike

Huneker has such a passion for Chopin that his book simply fills one's heart with joy. It's almost therapeutic!

Have fun,
BBM

quote:

Perhaps more important to the ear, the Beethoven is chock full of joy, absent in the Chopin.

I think I know where you are coming from now, however, I still am of the opinion that of any classical composer I am familiar with starting from Bach through to Prokofiev that 'joy' is never the predominant theme or even the constant goal. It is present occasionally but no composer ever wrote strictly only joyful music. These composers still wrote pieces that covered all human emotions and I hear just as much sorrow, struggle, grief, loss of love etc. and generally I sense a lot of questions with some hope often coming to the rescue.

So, in other words, Chopin did write his fair share of 'joyful' music as well.

I would easily call the following Preludes from Op. 28 joyful:
C major (#1)
G major (#3)
A major (#7)
B major (#11)
E flat major (#19)
F major (#23)

Based on familiarity, I just randomly picked a few that strike me as pretty joyful. Note also, that these are all in the major keys. What adjectives would you use to describe these Preludes?

I only say what I say based on my own intuitive sense of what I derive from this music. I wonder if anyone else feels the same way? It's hard to put into words but it is something like the feeling that I do really find that there is also a certain amount of 'joy' in sorrow. I think these composers knew this as well otherwise they could not have written such profound music. I find pleasure in allowing music to take me to these sometimes unspeakable places. Something not easily accomplished with words alone.

Do you listen to the Preludes as a set or as individual or smaller groups?

Regards,
Doug

OK Florestan, over this coming week, I will give a careful listen to the joyful Chopin Preludes, Op. 28 you recommend, and see how well I can describe them.

Speaking of joyful, I think the Erocia Symphony is particularly joyful, excepting the second movement, and especially in the fourth movement. This music is playful and full of hope. No other composer achieves this abundance of joy.

I feel refreshed and invigorated after a good careful listen to the Eroica. It has been so for three decades, and the feeling has not dissipated a whit over all that time.

Chopin never "gets" me that way. He relies on other means.

But your list of preludes is intriguing, and can not be left to inattention.

Looking forward to talking soon.

Mike, I'm sure you can find every emotion in the 24 Preludes. You really should jot down what you feel from each little "perfect" miniature in what are the Preludes. You can easily sense lyricism, intensity, charm, wit, joy, gloom, desolation, heroism etc. as you move through them. You should know and understand that when Chopin composed these throughout 1838-39 that he wrote most of them while in Majorca with his mistress George Sand. It was mostly a miserable trip for Chopin but somehow we can benefit vicariously and relate to his suffering. What masterful results that can carry me for a lifetime. I wish I had the time to write about each one of these preludes and describe all the remarkable treasures within them in style and character and motif and symbolism etc. For example, in the C major ending you can hear a bell ringing four times at the end (middle C) with an echo of an amen in between. In the A flat major, the ending after the sotto voce has eleven distinct bongs or chimes of a clock represented by the low a flat. They slowly disappear into the distance. The key is that it dies out really when it is supposed to strike midnight. I'm just describing this imagery only as it really applies to me. You would have to come to your own conclusions. When I learnt these these are just some of the things I thought about or imagined the pieces to be about. Yet they are far more complicated in depth than I could ever write about or tell you about now.

Same goes for the Beethoven. You are absolutely right about the joy you hear in the Eroica. But also remember what had just happened in Beethoven's life just prior to writing this symphony. Have you ever read about the so-called Heiligenstadt Testament? How many people could understand the grief a musician would feel with the reality of going deaf? But he overcame depression and suicidal urges to return with a defiance and will to conquer this battle. You can clearly hear this in this and throughout all of Beethoven from that point forward. The Eroica is loosely based on ideas of Prometheus, as well as to show his admiration for Napoleon (at the time) and all this I believe also propelled his own desire to conquer this wretched deafness that was manifesting itself in him. So if you will, I would call this a defiant joy.

I just find all this music so fascinating. I just wish for everyone to find such joy in it.

Regards,
Doug

The differences in venue, intent and instrumentation define a great distance between these Chopin Preludes (considered as a group, the way they might have been in concert) and Beethoven's Eroica Symphony.

The Beethoven meant for great halls (more ticket sales) and the Chopin for the Salon. As you say, in his Eroica Symphony, Beethoven expressed a more joyful reality than circumstances might have warranted.

Chopin spent most of his adult life sick or dying. He also developed such an attraction to the piano, that he literally gave the piano a voice. I believe he is the first to do that.
Tender, fiery, fleet, somber, brooding, joyful, all these and more are used like colors on a pallet, applied to a canvas one step removed from the mechanics of the music itself. Don't think Debussy didn't notice that.

These two works couldn't be more different from each other. Still, they both rank at the very peak of the art of music making.

Dear Mike,

This really is to compare apples to oranges, isn't it?

Beethoven wrote a huge variety of piano works from virtual symphonies for keyboard [eg: Hamerklavier Sonata] to the smallest scale and most intimate works, though Chopin did not write any big public voiced orchestral symphonies!

Surely these observations need to at least to based on a comparison of Chopin's apples with Beethoven's ... to be more than a comparison of the immense differences between two entirely different styles and forms of music, which would be clear even to those not conversant with the actual pieces you mention.

ATB from George

Dear all,

I'm reading Mike's comments more as a comparison of impressions (from trying to learn these works intimately) than a comparison of music. As such, I find the discussion relevant and very enjoyable.

However, if I were to study these works intimately, my own approach would be to identify the closest common denominator first, and I second Doug's and George's thoughts on expanding the canvas towards Beethoven's piano works (his '32' provide a virtual tour through his life) or even Bach's Klavierübungen - which left their mark both in Beethoven and in Chopin.

Just my 2 cents,

EJ

Good points, EJS. For myself, If I can't deal with two sets of music, adding a third would not make things any clearer.

I am hoping that because these two works are dissimilar, common elements between the two will reveal themselves. A good analogy for this is thinking of models, the greater the distance between the parts, the easier to take their measure.

Right now, we are only finding out what may or may not deserve further attention.

Both sets of works, the Chopin Prelude and the Beethoven Eroica Symphony are unsurpassed. They are not wildly divergent in length. They are easy for prolonged study.

This is part of my effort to memorize the themes of some great works, these two sets of works among them. Things along this line of inquiry might hold personal interest.

Let's see what Florestan has to say about it?

At any rate, I'm not done thinking about this case. Beethoven and Chopin are two adjacent links in the superstructure of music. Their relationship as expressed in their works deserve consideration. I want to find out how to compare apples and oranges :-)

Just some further thoughts on how to reap enjoyment from comparing two sets of music you have an interest in at the moment.

At the moment, I am taking a closer look at Beethoven Symphonies and Chopin Preludes. I wanted to have some variety in my listening and this combination offers that in spades. It has the additional benefit that Beethoven and Chopin are adjacent links in the fabric of music. Two utterly original voices that changed the basic sound of the instruments they were writing for. In the Eroica, the orchestra speaks in a new voice. In the Preludes, the piano speaks in a new voice.

For my next iteration, the Chopin stays and the Beethoven Symphonies are replaced by the Debussy Preludes. George, here are apples being compared to apples. But this is weeks away from now.

I want to move from Debussy to Stravinsky, and then back to Bach and Haydn. I want to move forward in time, not backward, at least for the moment.

To summarize, I hope to study and have some variety while doing so, I want to go deeper into music from Beethoven forward, then backtrack, and hope to discuss my impressions with other posters.

The underlying logic in my sequence is this premise : Beethoven utterly changed music forever. For all the Haydn and Mozart you can hear in the music of Beethoven, his overall presentation is completely different from anything that preceded him. Chopin and Debussy are the next two composers to duplicate Beethoven's success in creating something utterly new. Berlioz probably belongs in this grouping as well, but I am not in a mood for Berlioz, who is sounding old-fashioned to my ears at the moment. I am sure Berlioz will get his day before all is said and done.

Mike,

For every composer/work you select, a thousand equally good candidates will stay neglected...

EJ

The way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.

I am starting with the most important composers.

This will go on for years, with different composers coming up to bat, and different works.

If I am successful in what I am attempting, three years from now there will be a great deal more music in my memory, fully fleshed out, and the ear/brain mechanism will squeeze more music out of listening.

One further thought. If you pick Beethoven Eroica Symphony or Chopin Preludes, there are not a thousand equally good candidates.

Mike

Which recording(s) of the Chopin Preludes are you listening to? I have recordings by Pollini, Blechacz, Sokolov, and Argerich. I cannot decide which I like best. Which one(s) do you prefer?

Best,
BBM

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
One further thought. If you pick Beethoven Eroica Symphony or Chopin Preludes, there are not a thousand equally good candidates.

Only one way to find out, right? Happy listening!

quote:

Originally posted by EJS:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
One further thought. If you pick Beethoven Eroica Symphony or Chopin Preludes, there are not a thousand equally good candidates.

Only one way to find out, right? Happy listening!

Been there, done that. I'm at the tail end of 47 years of listening. For me, it's time to edge the grass and prune the bushes and trees.