Obnoxious Naim Bashing
Posted by: Willito on 12 February 2003
Recently there was a thread on what people don't like about the Naim sound. I have just listened to an impassioned rant on these lines.
Curiousity about Avalon speakers prompted me to phone their UK distributor. Initial pleasentries quickly dissolved once the electronics were discussed. Naim, I was duly informed, was part of an archaic collusion with the likes of Linn and Epos to create a closed sound ring. Lacking a natural bandwidth, Naim was solely suitable for amplified music, and would reveal its shortcomings with any jazz or classical music. Indeed, said shortcomings were said to force Naim and their likes to rely on tricks like having to place speakers against the wall. Evidence of this was said to go as far back as the Isobariks of 70s. The words of Julian Vereker were invoked as proof that this was neither a subjective view, nor an accidental consequence.
Counselling and advice was offered to me to help me break out this closed circle, and open myself up to a more mainstream reference sound.
Fine, opinions are opinions, and I certainly understand how they will differ. Indeed, to a certain extent I enjoyed just how magnificently contrary the view was to what my ears tell me. But, What I found grating, however, was the bored arrogance with which this message was delivered. With contrived Euro pettit-bourgeois manners, all subjectivity in the appraisal of sound was dismissed, and a psuedo-science imposed instead. Knowing condescension: "Well you may enjoy the sound, but . . ."
It got my blood pumping better than a cup of strong coffee!
Curiousity about Avalon speakers prompted me to phone their UK distributor. Initial pleasentries quickly dissolved once the electronics were discussed. Naim, I was duly informed, was part of an archaic collusion with the likes of Linn and Epos to create a closed sound ring. Lacking a natural bandwidth, Naim was solely suitable for amplified music, and would reveal its shortcomings with any jazz or classical music. Indeed, said shortcomings were said to force Naim and their likes to rely on tricks like having to place speakers against the wall. Evidence of this was said to go as far back as the Isobariks of 70s. The words of Julian Vereker were invoked as proof that this was neither a subjective view, nor an accidental consequence.
Counselling and advice was offered to me to help me break out this closed circle, and open myself up to a more mainstream reference sound.
Fine, opinions are opinions, and I certainly understand how they will differ. Indeed, to a certain extent I enjoyed just how magnificently contrary the view was to what my ears tell me. But, What I found grating, however, was the bored arrogance with which this message was delivered. With contrived Euro pettit-bourgeois manners, all subjectivity in the appraisal of sound was dismissed, and a psuedo-science imposed instead. Knowing condescension: "Well you may enjoy the sound, but . . ."
It got my blood pumping better than a cup of strong coffee!
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by reductionist
Some people are full of shit. They also have to resort to disparaging bollocks in an attempt to give their own products credence, this will always fail.
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
Everyone has their own musical preferences, and perhaps his own are better served by non-naim gear.
For that matter, your's might be too.
Why not go listen to what he has to offer and try to keep an open mind. After all, he may well present a solution that you think is brilliant.
Failing that, tell him that his mega "hi-fi" sounding kit is piss boring to listen to, and that he's talking out of his @rse!
For that matter, your's might be too.
Why not go listen to what he has to offer and try to keep an open mind. After all, he may well present a solution that you think is brilliant.
Failing that, tell him that his mega "hi-fi" sounding kit is piss boring to listen to, and that he's talking out of his @rse!
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Tony Lockhart
Would the same salesman say that Sunday roast is right and prawn vindaloo wrong? Aston Vanquish the anti-Christ and Ferrari 360 the only true car?
Open your eyes and ears!
Tony
Open your eyes and ears!
Tony
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Timbo
Well at least Naimites will listen to an arguement, but if people are "reading from a card" then how can one have a meaning ful discussion. People come to my house listen to music and have different opinions, however this is usually about the music, not the hi fi.
In fact it was reported in one hi fi magazine Naim has a following that other manufacturers would kill for!!
Tim
In fact it was reported in one hi fi magazine Naim has a following that other manufacturers would kill for!!
Tim
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Andrew L. Weekes
Whilst you owe it to yourself, particularly at times of significant expenditure, to listen to other kit, I'd strongly urge you not to listen to anything being suggested by the Avalon distributor.
Slagging anyone elses product, rather than demonstrating the advantages of your own, is one of the sacred golden rules of selling anything. You just don't do it.
Those who do deserve contempt and no business.
It's fine to present arguments that differ from the customers perceptions and understanding, but there are ways to do it, and arrogantly indoctrinating people via a telephone conversation is not the way to do it.
They might be right, for all you know, but I'd suggest they'll never get the chance to prove it now.
Andy.
Slagging anyone elses product, rather than demonstrating the advantages of your own, is one of the sacred golden rules of selling anything. You just don't do it.
Those who do deserve contempt and no business.
It's fine to present arguments that differ from the customers perceptions and understanding, but there are ways to do it, and arrogantly indoctrinating people via a telephone conversation is not the way to do it.
They might be right, for all you know, but I'd suggest they'll never get the chance to prove it now.
Andy.
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by JosephR
I agree with Mr_Sukebe. A friend had an Avalon Opus (approx. USD 18K), and I thought it was so boring. But he likes it that way, it's his preference, and will not get into Naim ...
Another one blew up his Avalon Radian woofers trying to get the Naim DBL dynamics ... his non-Naim system is good, though, (the source was good) but you need a lot of power to drive these Avalon Radians.
Anyway, you should get used to Naim-bashing, it's been there for a long time. Just cruise around it
Another one blew up his Avalon Radian woofers trying to get the Naim DBL dynamics ... his non-Naim system is good, though, (the source was good) but you need a lot of power to drive these Avalon Radians.
Anyway, you should get used to Naim-bashing, it's been there for a long time. Just cruise around it
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by David Antonelli
Hi,
I read an interesting article in the Toronto globe and mail about the pursuit of 'The absolute sound" in the form of hyper-expensive cables, soundstaging, texture, air, and imaging. The pith of the article was that a study had been done on the equipment said to be the best (according to TAS) and what they found invariably was that this equipment had very high levels of favorable distortion relative to other equipment held in less high esteem. The journalist concluded that the search for all of these round earth attributes (he did not use this term) was actually a quest for favorable distortion of a certain type. I compare this to the wine world where round earth are the manufactured "bluer than blue" new world wines and Naim is more akin to wines of southern france that use no oak or cellar tricks, but are simply pure expressions of Syrah and Grenache and the vinyard they come from. So I am very careful with these audio gurus who downplay naim for being bandwidth limited etc. Naim just hasn't introduced the favorable distortion that creates this kind of sound that many people believe is the hallmark of the "high end".
Dave
I read an interesting article in the Toronto globe and mail about the pursuit of 'The absolute sound" in the form of hyper-expensive cables, soundstaging, texture, air, and imaging. The pith of the article was that a study had been done on the equipment said to be the best (according to TAS) and what they found invariably was that this equipment had very high levels of favorable distortion relative to other equipment held in less high esteem. The journalist concluded that the search for all of these round earth attributes (he did not use this term) was actually a quest for favorable distortion of a certain type. I compare this to the wine world where round earth are the manufactured "bluer than blue" new world wines and Naim is more akin to wines of southern france that use no oak or cellar tricks, but are simply pure expressions of Syrah and Grenache and the vinyard they come from. So I am very careful with these audio gurus who downplay naim for being bandwidth limited etc. Naim just hasn't introduced the favorable distortion that creates this kind of sound that many people believe is the hallmark of the "high end".
Dave
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Wolf
I listened to the Beatles White Album last night and Naim had it all right. Every detail was in place and beautifully presented. I was amazed and I don't have the high end gear.
I'll let the pundits squack and tune them out with my gear.
glenn
I'll let the pundits squack and tune them out with my gear.
glenn
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Tristram
On occassion I have experienced the same extremely negative opinion of Naim. This was in at least a couple of places. If anything, it solidified my loyalty to the brand. Any brand that can bring out this kind of emotional response must be good. Otherwise the reaction is less critical, and far more diplomatic. tw
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by David Antonelli
Tristram,
I have an issue with the price of the 552, not the naim sound. On this ground I agree with you on profoundly negative reactions being a sign of excellence. I am a scientist and poor quality presentations are usually met with quiet pity and little interest at any conference. It is usually the best work that arouses the most negative and spirited reactions.
"if the hounds are barking the horses are riding" and my CDS2/52/500/ACT 2 is certainly a rider!
Dave
I have an issue with the price of the 552, not the naim sound. On this ground I agree with you on profoundly negative reactions being a sign of excellence. I am a scientist and poor quality presentations are usually met with quiet pity and little interest at any conference. It is usually the best work that arouses the most negative and spirited reactions.
"if the hounds are barking the horses are riding" and my CDS2/52/500/ACT 2 is certainly a rider!
Dave
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by matthewr
Such an extreme and aggressive reaction is a good example of what Freud called the narcissism of minor differences. The dealer has set himself up as an expert and has therefore invested a lot of his self worth and identity in this expertise. Hence a differen choice by the customer directly threatens the dealer's ego and you get a disportionate reaction even though the differnces don't really justify it.
This also explains most arguments in hi-fi circles including Mana Vs Fraim, 102 vs 72, Linn vs Naim, Flat Vs Round, multiple spurs vs single spurs, etc. However it doesn't explain Russ Andrews who is simply wrong.
Matthew
Amateur Pop Psyschologist
This also explains most arguments in hi-fi circles including Mana Vs Fraim, 102 vs 72, Linn vs Naim, Flat Vs Round, multiple spurs vs single spurs, etc. However it doesn't explain Russ Andrews who is simply wrong.
Matthew
Amateur Pop Psyschologist
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Laurie Saunders
I love the "naim sound"...at least the one that I have at home (not the one I have heard in virtually every dealer, nor the one I have heard at shows, nor the sound I have heard from many others` Naim systems that I have heard in their homes)
I think that Naim amps, tuners, speakers and phono stages are the best available (when I have them working at home, set up "properly")
However, I cannot get on with the sound of Naim CD players...whilst admitting that they do some things superbly. The things that matter more to me, they do rather less well IMHO; This is not sour grapes. I hope these comments do not cause any "rednecks" out there to spit blood and try to get me banned (or jailed for life etc etc...)
I am just stating the situation as I find it. The apparent inconsistency of this position is more of a puzzle to me than any one else out there. But that is how it is, for the record
Laurie S
I think that Naim amps, tuners, speakers and phono stages are the best available (when I have them working at home, set up "properly")
However, I cannot get on with the sound of Naim CD players...whilst admitting that they do some things superbly. The things that matter more to me, they do rather less well IMHO; This is not sour grapes. I hope these comments do not cause any "rednecks" out there to spit blood and try to get me banned (or jailed for life etc etc...)
I am just stating the situation as I find it. The apparent inconsistency of this position is more of a puzzle to me than any one else out there. But that is how it is, for the record
Laurie S
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
I've owned KLH (eons ago)
McIntosh
Forte
Several thermonic systems
Full blown Levison system
Krell
Pass
Theta
Arcam
Speakers WAY to numerous to list, and I'm sure I've missed several electronics too. Additionaly I've had the multi-year experience of reviewing tons of othe gear in various combinations.
Point is, I like my Naim. I like the system approach. After 30 + years I'd like to think I have evolved to Naim!
Certainly possible that something else could come and blow it all off the shelves. That'll be an interesting day!
I agree w/the poster that pointed out products should be sold on their merits, not the imagined short commings of the competion. Just my qualified opinion.
McIntosh
Forte
Several thermonic systems
Full blown Levison system
Krell
Pass
Theta
Arcam
Speakers WAY to numerous to list, and I'm sure I've missed several electronics too. Additionaly I've had the multi-year experience of reviewing tons of othe gear in various combinations.
Point is, I like my Naim. I like the system approach. After 30 + years I'd like to think I have evolved to Naim!
Certainly possible that something else could come and blow it all off the shelves. That'll be an interesting day!
I agree w/the poster that pointed out products should be sold on their merits, not the imagined short commings of the competion. Just my qualified opinion.
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Tarquin Maynard - Portly
Muchachos
One of my earliest posts said that if it sounds better, it is better. I still think that holds true.
But I still feel the Avalon guy is talking from a bodily orifice not normally associated with conversation.
Mike
One of my earliest posts said that if it sounds better, it is better. I still think that holds true.
But I still feel the Avalon guy is talking from a bodily orifice not normally associated with conversation.
Mike
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by jayd
Mike Lacey said:
Hear hear! For audio enthusiasts, I wholeheartedly agree.
Audio dealers, however, may have trouble reconciling this truism with their profit margins; reckon they may have to go with "If it's in my showroom, it is better", out of fiscal necessity.
Talking up their own stuff would seem a far better approach than talking down someone else's, though.
jay
quote:
...if it sounds better, it is better
Hear hear! For audio enthusiasts, I wholeheartedly agree.
Audio dealers, however, may have trouble reconciling this truism with their profit margins; reckon they may have to go with "If it's in my showroom, it is better", out of fiscal necessity.
Talking up their own stuff would seem a far better approach than talking down someone else's, though.
jay
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Steve Toy
quote:
However, I cannot get on with the sound of Naim CD players...
I take almost the opposite viewpoint. Naim amps and speakers are ok, but the CD players are truly excellent.
I like the Naim musical signature at source.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by Laurie Saunders
Steve.. I also love Naim as the "source".....the 01, Aro, Prefix are the best as far as I am concerned ( My record player would not accomodate an Aro...my present listening room, unfortunately will not allow the use of Naim speakers). I also think the CDS2 sounds fantastic on SOME discs...however on the majority of music I like it does not seem to perform as well as others
As I have said, a close freind has a Naim system. Heloaned me his CDX /XPS for many weeks. He agreed that it underperformed compared to my machine...in every area!. He now owns a CDS2......he now believes for some music the CDS2 is better (mainly the type of music he listens to)...but for other types of music he confirms that my machine does it better...the differences overall are quite small...much smaller than the comparison between a CDX/XPS and a CDS2 in HIS opnion. What is incredible is that my machine is twelve years old and can be purchased s/h for between £300 -£400
I still cannot work this out
What we have both noticed is that since optimising our mains, we have moved into a new arena...any comparisons with any kit running off poor mains, daisy chained multiway blocks, etc etc are now meaningless. Its like the discussing the relative merits of various colour TVs and trying to bring monochrome ones into the comparison
Laurie S
As I have said, a close freind has a Naim system. Heloaned me his CDX /XPS for many weeks. He agreed that it underperformed compared to my machine...in every area!. He now owns a CDS2......he now believes for some music the CDS2 is better (mainly the type of music he listens to)...but for other types of music he confirms that my machine does it better...the differences overall are quite small...much smaller than the comparison between a CDX/XPS and a CDS2 in HIS opnion. What is incredible is that my machine is twelve years old and can be purchased s/h for between £300 -£400
I still cannot work this out
What we have both noticed is that since optimising our mains, we have moved into a new arena...any comparisons with any kit running off poor mains, daisy chained multiway blocks, etc etc are now meaningless. Its like the discussing the relative merits of various colour TVs and trying to bring monochrome ones into the comparison
Laurie S
Posted on: 12 February 2003 by syd
Laurie
You say that your meridian 12 year old CD can be had £300-£400 second hand but I notice that its described in your profile as tweaked. Can you expand on this.
Yours in Music
Syd
You say that your meridian 12 year old CD can be had £300-£400 second hand but I notice that its described in your profile as tweaked. Can you expand on this.
Yours in Music
Syd
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by woodface
Sorry for the crudity but here's why.
Often reviewers will talk about air and space etc, that you can visualise where the musicians are, how accurate the sound staging is etc, etc. My point is that unless you were actually in the studio and heard the master tapes, saw how the recording was mixed and who was mic'ed where - how can you know? I have read the Ashley Kahn KOB book and also halfway through his 'A Love Supreme'; this guy has heard the masters etc and describes where everything is - my system reproduces this more or les exactly! My system varies it's presentation in line with the recording - it is broadly speaking, accurate. Round earth just seems to tell you what you want to hear - a huge amorphous mess!
Often reviewers will talk about air and space etc, that you can visualise where the musicians are, how accurate the sound staging is etc, etc. My point is that unless you were actually in the studio and heard the master tapes, saw how the recording was mixed and who was mic'ed where - how can you know? I have read the Ashley Kahn KOB book and also halfway through his 'A Love Supreme'; this guy has heard the masters etc and describes where everything is - my system reproduces this more or les exactly! My system varies it's presentation in line with the recording - it is broadly speaking, accurate. Round earth just seems to tell you what you want to hear - a huge amorphous mess!
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by Laurie Saunders
Woodface...you seem to have pretty strong views...your use of the cliched "round-earth vs flat earth" comparison is a pretty sweeping generalisation. It seems that your comments are based largely on heresay...(what reviewers think) and speculation..(what MUST be an accurate representation of the "truth").
The error in this position is that it is presented as an either /or situation. By gaining what you describe as "round earth" qualities, I have not had to sacrifice any of the so called "flat earth" ones...in fact these have been enhanced as well.
You deride the fact that "round earth systems give you what you want to hear..."
Isn`t that the whole point of HiFi?
Or are you in the "if it ain`t hurting it ain`t working" camp?
If a recording is imperfectly mastered yet contains superb musicianship, I would like the latter to be emphasised and the former to be minimised...otherwise you may end up (as I know many who have) with a megabucks system so "highly strung" that all you can do with it is listen to a very few reference recordings;...over and over....rejecting the vast majority of new discs as "unplayable"....leading to stagnation.... listening to the "hifi" and not the music"
My system , at long last,has reached the point where I can easily discern the quality of recordings yet this does not make almost every CD I play sound unenjoyable. My music collection is now expanding at a faster rate than ever before. My system now does what I have always believed it should: take a "back seat" and allow new music maximum communication
What basis in EXPERIENCE do you have for these comments...ie what equipment do you yourself use and what have you tried at home?....ie on what basis have you formed your judgement?
For what it is worth I believe that the new "improved" Naim range actually gives you more of the very qualities you seem to detest.
From what I have read and heard, the new Naim range gives more Flat and Round earth virtues.....I guess you would hate it!
Laurie S
[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on THURSDAY 13 February 2003 at 11:50.]
The error in this position is that it is presented as an either /or situation. By gaining what you describe as "round earth" qualities, I have not had to sacrifice any of the so called "flat earth" ones...in fact these have been enhanced as well.
You deride the fact that "round earth systems give you what you want to hear..."
Isn`t that the whole point of HiFi?
Or are you in the "if it ain`t hurting it ain`t working" camp?
If a recording is imperfectly mastered yet contains superb musicianship, I would like the latter to be emphasised and the former to be minimised...otherwise you may end up (as I know many who have) with a megabucks system so "highly strung" that all you can do with it is listen to a very few reference recordings;...over and over....rejecting the vast majority of new discs as "unplayable"....leading to stagnation.... listening to the "hifi" and not the music"
My system , at long last,has reached the point where I can easily discern the quality of recordings yet this does not make almost every CD I play sound unenjoyable. My music collection is now expanding at a faster rate than ever before. My system now does what I have always believed it should: take a "back seat" and allow new music maximum communication
What basis in EXPERIENCE do you have for these comments...ie what equipment do you yourself use and what have you tried at home?....ie on what basis have you formed your judgement?
For what it is worth I believe that the new "improved" Naim range actually gives you more of the very qualities you seem to detest.
From what I have read and heard, the new Naim range gives more Flat and Round earth virtues.....I guess you would hate it!
Laurie S
[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on THURSDAY 13 February 2003 at 11:50.]
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
Guys,
I'm confused. This thread started out at someone complaining about a dealer stating that he prefered another brand to Naim.
Most of the threads on here have simply answered back stating that you prefer Naim and that the dealer is out of order.
Isn't that rather hypocritical?
Lets face it, someone must be buying "round earth" equipment, or the companies would quickly go out of business. Stretching this a bit more, Naim are surely in the minority when comparing to total sales of ALL competing equipment. Now to me that suggests that we are necessarily NOT RIGHT for everyone.
Don't you think we should adopt a policy of live and let live, as against being just as defensive as some of our detractors?
I'm confused. This thread started out at someone complaining about a dealer stating that he prefered another brand to Naim.
Most of the threads on here have simply answered back stating that you prefer Naim and that the dealer is out of order.
Isn't that rather hypocritical?
Lets face it, someone must be buying "round earth" equipment, or the companies would quickly go out of business. Stretching this a bit more, Naim are surely in the minority when comparing to total sales of ALL competing equipment. Now to me that suggests that we are necessarily NOT RIGHT for everyone.
Don't you think we should adopt a policy of live and let live, as against being just as defensive as some of our detractors?
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by woodface
First of all I hope my post has not been taken as a personal attack on any one individuals (Laurie) taste or otherwise. In truth my rant would have been better targetted at Hi-Fi reviewers rather than forum memebers! The point I was trying to make is that many of the assumptions made about whther certain equipment is 'accurate' are often baseless; it is also naive to assume that all recordings should sound great, a good system should reveal the nature of a recording without ruining the enjoyment of the music. I have pretty much a full naim system the only exception being the LP12. I am not one of these people who endlessly compares various systems; I simply buy from a reputable dealer who I trust and always try at home before I buy. The great thing about naim et al is that you can just enjoy the music rather wondering whther you have chosen the right cable! I do buy a lot of music (around a 100 or so albums a year) and have very varied tastes.
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by Laurie Saunders
woodface...I agree...however even I suffered from "upgradeitis"...that feeling that, however good my equipment was , I just wanted that little bit more. You know the feeling...."just one more final upgrade and I`ll be there...". This feeling only disappeared when I sorted my mains....the equipment now sounds as if it has been "freed" to give what its designers intended and my attention has now moved away from the kit to the music....which is how it should be IMHO. Unfortunately for manufacturers of Hi Fi it does not serve their long term business plan if customers end up keeping the same kit for a very long time ...there has got to be the "carrot" of improved sound. A dealer who is also a "freind" said that if all his customers were like me he`d have gone bust years ago.
I never cease to be amazed at he amount of nearly new, very expensive kit on the s/h market....ok some may be as a result of sudden unexpected "life changes"...I wonder how much of it is from people who have been brainwashed by "freinds" or unscrupulous dealers that the kit is "the best"...only to find that it sounds terrible (because it has not been set up properly) or burnt in...or is even of the wrong "type"
Many years ago, I used to read reviews, then audition equipment....I could not work out why kit that I thought sounded dreadful, was getting "5 stars" I now rely solely on my own ears....with more experience I realise that the majority of reviewers (and many dealers):
(1) Do not have much experience of what a "good" sound is
(2) Have not lived with kit long enough to really get to know it
(3) Have some ulterior motive for hyping some kit
There is , I`m sad to say also an element of "snobbery" that rears its head from time to time, ...regretably even on this Forum
We can all progress by sharing our own experiences of our systems....we know the equipment better than the dealers, or, dare i say it, the manufacturers. This should not involve one-upmanship or point scoring...though unfortunately someone or other throws a spanner into the works(debate) by using personal attacks and abuse to try(usually unsuccessfully) to make their own point of view carry more weight
The reason I use this Forum is to try and learn from others` experience, and also to pass on any good ideas I have encountered
Laurie S
I never cease to be amazed at he amount of nearly new, very expensive kit on the s/h market....ok some may be as a result of sudden unexpected "life changes"...I wonder how much of it is from people who have been brainwashed by "freinds" or unscrupulous dealers that the kit is "the best"...only to find that it sounds terrible (because it has not been set up properly) or burnt in...or is even of the wrong "type"
Many years ago, I used to read reviews, then audition equipment....I could not work out why kit that I thought sounded dreadful, was getting "5 stars" I now rely solely on my own ears....with more experience I realise that the majority of reviewers (and many dealers):
(1) Do not have much experience of what a "good" sound is
(2) Have not lived with kit long enough to really get to know it
(3) Have some ulterior motive for hyping some kit
There is , I`m sad to say also an element of "snobbery" that rears its head from time to time, ...regretably even on this Forum
We can all progress by sharing our own experiences of our systems....we know the equipment better than the dealers, or, dare i say it, the manufacturers. This should not involve one-upmanship or point scoring...though unfortunately someone or other throws a spanner into the works(debate) by using personal attacks and abuse to try(usually unsuccessfully) to make their own point of view carry more weight
The reason I use this Forum is to try and learn from others` experience, and also to pass on any good ideas I have encountered
Laurie S
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by woodface
1) musical Fidelity, I hate the way they constantly issue new products (often cheaper than prior models) which makes their earlier stuff 'obsolete'. Surely a better idea is to develop stuff more thoroughly in the first place? Or even better for the magazines to stop reviewing them!
2) Dealers who are quick to offer you an alternaitve to the expensive amp etc that you have just shelled out for. Thankfully my regular dealer takes a detached view on the hi-fi world and is often amazed at what people will spend on their system. As a result I have probably spent more money on my system than I ever thought likely - funny old world isn't it?
2) Dealers who are quick to offer you an alternaitve to the expensive amp etc that you have just shelled out for. Thankfully my regular dealer takes a detached view on the hi-fi world and is often amazed at what people will spend on their system. As a result I have probably spent more money on my system than I ever thought likely - funny old world isn't it?
Posted on: 13 February 2003 by Tristram
Taking issue with the price of a product is fine. Not being interested in the CD players, big deal. But there are dealers out there who won't speak to you if they find out you own Naim. In one case a dealer tried to sell me an entire Krell system after I asked about speakers. He didn't get the sale.
I think reasoned evaluations and an opinion based on listening is great regardless of the outcome. However, the twinge of jealousy and envy always present themselves in a common way. I am a bigger Naim fan after these experiences, and I feel certain based on the reaction alone that the "brand" is exceptional.
Ironically, some of the comments about BMW's on this site have lead me to a similar conclusion.
I guess it can apply to many things... tw
I think reasoned evaluations and an opinion based on listening is great regardless of the outcome. However, the twinge of jealousy and envy always present themselves in a common way. I am a bigger Naim fan after these experiences, and I feel certain based on the reaction alone that the "brand" is exceptional.
Ironically, some of the comments about BMW's on this site have lead me to a similar conclusion.
I guess it can apply to many things... tw