Replacement for Isobariks

Also try the NEAT MF7 loudspeakers, which are at the same price-point as the NBLs.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Tip 2: Rather than buying ready-made, use a potato peeler for making parmesan shavings

SJ,

You don't say what you are using to drive your Isobariks so I am making assumptions here. I'm a great fan of the B&W 800 if you can stretch that far! Magnificent presence but need a lot of current - even the mighty 500 struggles sometimes! The NBLs are great but need a lot of attention to setup and placement - they work well in passive and active mode and, if you're lucky like me, you could pick some up ex-dem for a real bargain.

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I'm looking to replace my active Isobariks and was wondering if anybody has been in a similar situation.

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Why do you want to replace the Bariks? They remain one of my favourite speakers, and are what I would use myself if I could kill all my neighbours / afford the space and amplification they demand.

What is the rest of your system? Unless you are at the totally full tilt LP12 / 552 level I would spend the money upstream!

Also, even speaking very much as a non-Mana fan I would recommend hearing their Barik stands, from what I can tell from one listen in a system that I was not familiar with they do seem to work… Definitely worth investigating.

Tony.

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ATC100s...faster than Kans

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James, though I think your speakers are great and the sound you get from your system is magnificent, your ATC100s are most definitely not faster than Kans. I am no fan of the Kan but, man, they are fast wee speakers. My Petites are a similar speed (without the 'edge of seat' nervousness of Kans) but your ATCs, whilst fast for a fat-boy speaker, aren't really in the same league of 'instancy'.

No offense, mate! Your speakers are very fine indeed, and I'm delighted they are working for you and would represent an upgrade from Briks, yes, but they're not faster than Kans IMHO...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Mr Pike

I would suggest that you buy either a brand new pair of Mana stands @ £475.00 or a good second hand set for about £275.00ish (they tend to hold their value).

They are well constructed, look surprisingly good under the Briks and definately do improve the sound, mainly at the top end.

If you do not like the end result, sell it and you will get a good price for the combined unit of Brik/Mana rack.

I suspect that like me, you will find it a surprisingly good upgrade.

Briks are an absolute bargin in terms of sound per pound and I would be inclined to spend any available cash on a better front end.

Spend the money on either a 552 or a CDS3. You will get a much better sound investing in the front end than if you spent the money on expensive speakers that may or may not match the Briks.

Your programme should be

1. Buy a CDS3
2 Then a 552
3. Then a NAP500

and only then should you upgrade your speakers.

It would also be cost effective for you to possibly overhaul the speaker units.

Regards

Mick

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Loud transients make even seasoned listeners blink/flinch/jump

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This is true of any speaker which can marry volume with a high dynamic range. In the Kans case, it's the volume that is lacking, which is perhaps why you think they aren't as fast. They are. Faster, IMHO, though I admit to not hearing a pair in the last year or so, and certainly since hearing your ATCs last week.

Speed is not dynamic range or volume; it's difficult for me to explain, but I do know it when I hear it (my DNM 3B/PA3^S is the fastest system I have ever heard, but certainly not the most 'dynamic' in terms of absolute volume).

Kans have speed in buckets, but lack the finesse and sheer dynamic capability of your ATCs (obviously). I too once made the mistake of confusing speed and absolute dynamic ability, as I once had a 400w drum cabinet which could easily make my eyes smart (at least as much as your ATCs) though the sound was not 'fast' in the sense that it didn't describe the full initial envelope of snare drum sounds accurately - which was why it was cheap and why it feel into my grubby paws

Speed is not a factor of dynamic range, though they are very closely interlinked. Dynamic range is how quiet to how loud, speed is how long it takes to go between the two...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Per

Good point about not hearing a CDS3.

However, in all my years, I have yet to come across an instance where Naims replacement model fails to exceed the model which it was intended to replace. It is that consistent record of improvement which allows me to make such unconfirmed statements with confidence.

The main thrust of my post was to advise Mr Pike to spend his money at the front end of his system.

Regards

Mick

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Speaker technology, spearheaded by the extraordinarily capable ATC soft-dome midrange driver, has moved on in a big way since the heyday of the Linn Isobarik.

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OTOH the mid range unit in the Isobarik was used in hundreds of studio monitors back in the days when the BBC actually had high technical standards. I expect they use ATCs now.

Mr Pike should ensure his amplifiers and speakers are working as intended and perhaps simply reinstall everything. Beating Briks is an expensive business.

Paul

Bub,

For an order of magnitude greater investment the ATCs should be pretty good.

But it strikes me that you've not actually lived with them both so perhaps your opinions are a shade over definite?

(I don't know what you and TC mean by 'speed' or 'loud transient'. Why not just say that the drums on 'Little Wing' from 'Hendrix in the West' sound like real drums? (Which they do on Briks...))

Paul

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Well I've heard them often enough, and I'm fresh (?) from a three-day visit to Anglesea where I heard probably the best pair of briks that there is...don't get me wrong, they are good, but they are not up to ATC standards by a long chalk.

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Hmmmm... Ok, so after owning both pairs of speakers for a long time JW sold you the best ones and kept the worst ones for himself...

Tony.

PS there is a big difference between speed (which is down to cone size, weight, cabinet loading) and transient ability (power handling / lack of compression). Kans are very fast and agile, but simply do not do loud, ATCs are very loud but don't (quite) do fast.

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I would reiterate that I think that active ATC 100s on Mana stands are much faster than Kans. One day you may hear it for yourself, if you would like to?

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I would actually! I've only heard ATCs in studios and always left with the impression that they are a good monitor (i.e. they let you know exactly what is wrong), but that I wouldn't like them at home. I'd really like to hear the little ones too.

On the subject of Stealth - what's the sketch with ESC? It would appear to the casual and uninformed observer (i.e. me) that they are one and the same amp. There was a similar question recently on the Mana forum, but no one answered it...

Tony.

I have ATC 50's active AND active SBL's.

Whilst the ATC's are fast and accurate they are not as musical as the full Naim set up IMO. I do love the power and transient attack of the ATC's which SBL's can only dream of. That is why I have not sold them. Ideally it would be nice to have 2 systems!

Steve

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My definition of 'fast' means that the drivers can react very, very quickly to the signal (music, speech, whatever) fed to them by the poweramps.

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This isn't a meaningful definition of 'fast'. If the drivers weren't reacting quickly you'd have noise rather than recognisable sounds. Radio 4 would sound like it was being transmitted via a Vocoder.

I've no idea what 'fast' or 'musical' mean. I'd better get those Kans out of the loft.

Paul

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My definition of 'fast' means that the drivers can react very, very quickly to the signal (music, speech, whatever) fed to them by the poweramps. Assuming that the signal is good, this means that you can hear what an instrument actually sounds like, with all the subtle nuances intact (as long as they are present on the recording, of course).

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The many ways that audio systems screw timing up has taken me many years to even start to understand. James’s definition above is great, yet doesn’t touch upon what makes certain speakers (Kans / SBLs / Quad 57s) true masters at timing from a musical perspective. The ability to start and stop without overhang is just the beginning of the problem, and it is amazing how many products fail at this point – most ported speakers do. The harder bit in my opinion is to get the whole frequency range arriving at the listener at the same time – this is where the Kan magic lies. I make no apologies, but I’m a timing freak, the bassline must sit exactly right with the drum kit, and that means being in time with the hi-hats etc.

A hell of a lot of hi-fi seems to time-smear, i.e. the top and bottom of the frequency range are not correctly in time with one another. A system can bugger this up whilst sounding really “fast” in the sense of starting and stopping notes, yet the drummer and bass player sound out of time with one another. To my ears this has the effect of making a truly excellent rhythm section sound like a poor pub band doing a slightly drunken cover version. It is amazing how little it takes to screw up this aspect of system performance – I can knock my system out with a simple change of interconnect. Having lived with a system that really excels at this aspect of performance I can honestly say that most systems just don’t time right at all, and usually the more expensive ones are the worst offenders.

Tony.

later on down the thread... :-)

I see you live in Loughborough? Go and see Derek Whittington in New Audio Frontiers, and see what he has to say. He stocks some Shahinians I believe, he'll give you some good advice in general.

My advice is listen to all the speakers described by people. I will stick my vote in for the Shahinian Hawks. Some find the Shahinians a bit 'hit or miss' (personally I think this is for the 'lower range', and do searches in the forum), I love them.. make sure that you have the equipment to get the best out of them first though.

Ps rumour has it now that Shahinain are producing there best quality of cabinets for years :-)

happy speaker hunting

Cheers
Goose

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You might think that you are travelling very fast in a Jumbo jet, relatively speaking to a sports car, until Concorde sails by.

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But speaker cones pop in and out in cycles rather than heading out across the Atlantic (well, couple your bass driver direct to the mains and anything could happen....).

So as long as the driver can handle the frequency and level asked of it then it is, by your definition, fast enough.

Paul

Stuart,

if it were my money, I would first try to quantify what I felt was wrong with my current system. By changing to (for example) Hawks, you will undoubtably change the character of this system, but it may not address want you really want in a system.

I would 'baseline' my system and get it working as well as possible. So a complete service on existing electronics and turntable. Top quality stands for the lot. New cartridge.

Then and only then, would I take a look at a 552.

As for speakers, NBLs and Hawks are OK, but to be frank, I would call them different not better than Bariks. Especially, after the baselining excercise I am outlining.

In your shoes, my end point would your system but sorted out with a spring clean but with 552 and DBLs. DBLs make mincemeat out the speakers you mentioned in elmost every possible way. Just make sure you have at leat 1 metre of space from the side of the speaker to the side walls of your room.

Anyway, in summary:

My suggestions (having heard many Barik systems) would be:

1. Get Derek to give your LP-12 a thorough going over.

2. Have all the electronic serviced by Naim

3. If you are still LP-based consider a new cart such as a Lyra Titan in an Ekos, or Dynavector DV-1 in an Aro.

4. Mana Phase 7 under the LP-12

5. Mana Barik stands at Phase 4 under the speakers

6. Naim Fraim or Mana Phase 4 under the electronics.

7. Audition 552 vs 52.

8. Demo DBL.

If you look at it from the other eye all you have is a position and velocity bounded with a maximum acceleration.

However I don't believe that when we find a speaker/amp/whatever 'fast' or 'slow' that we are hearing limitations in these terms.

It's intriguing that the Linn Aktiv for Isobariks appears to contain a delay line for the bass signal. Enough electronics to give a Naimie a funny turn...

Paul

It's interesting that Meridian have long propounded active speakers with digital frequency division.

Now that multi-channel preamps have arrived it would not be difficult to imagine building this function into the CD player.

Run it through a six-channel preamp and into three stereo amps and then your Isobariks/DBLs etc.

The maths might be a bit daunting for digitally processing the bitstream off an SACD, though!

Could result in some funny earth topologies, too, unless the multiple channel pairs ran separate earths. Maybe we need a new seven-pin DIN socket? Still, all this stuff has changed in the new boxes, anyway.

cheers, Martin