Ian Huntley attacked in prison.

Seems he is O.K. mores the pity!

Chaps

The cost of keeping Huntly in protected custody will be massive.

The simple way to solve the problem is to outsource his sentence to somewhere like Burma where conditions are harsh and the cost is low.

Regards

Mick

Another vote against the death penalty.

And wot Mick said. PFI, please.

I don't support mob violence.

His incarceration is to protect the public. It is also to punish him by restricting his liberty. We still owe a duty of care (to him and all prisoners) to provide food and housing and also reasonable protection from illegal acts of violence. That is the law, and one I agree with.

Those who say this is an argument against the death penalty are apparently instead supporting the idea of prison lynching gangs?

If you 'support' his assault (or shipping to the jungle) would you also perhaps allow him to be tortured, or used as a guinea pig for medical experiments? Any echoes of history in those suggestions anyone?

Bruce

For me, Bruce has said what my brain tells me. The others have said what my heart tells me.
This is the problem in so many debates. But it is our intellect that distinguishes us from other animals. And although it may contradict our feelings, we must follow it.
Don overcast downtown York

Oh yes we are all so superior to those banged up inside prison (where they rightly belong having been found guilty of a crime or crimes) and where we allow or approve of them committing further crimes? I don't think so. You are not so very different to a criminal in prison who is violent to another prisoner if you support that violence. Human beings have a need to feel superior - even convicted criminals have to feel superior to someone hence the persecution of sex offenders. Research has shown that people are reasonably happy when they have eveything the need but they are way more happy when they have more than their friends/relations.

Bruce

I agree that Huntley is entitled to protection but we all know he will die in prison and rightly so.

Under these circumstances I see nothing wrong in outsourcing his sentence to a country where the cost is fairly low such as india, Burma or China.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Bruce

I agree that Huntley is entitled to protection but we all know he will die in prison and rightly so.

Under these circumstances I see nothing wrong in outsourcing his sentence to a country where the cost is fairly low such as india, Burma or China.

Regards

Mick

In theory neither do I, if the 'care' (and security) is suitable. Burma not exactly a country I'd trust mind you! I was reacting to those who seem to be relishing the assault on him.

Bruce

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:



If you 'support' his assault (or shipping to the jungle) would you also perhaps allow him to be tortured, or used as a guinea pig for medical experiments?

Bruce

When I think of that haunting last picture of those two beautiful innocent little girls in their Manchester United shirts, my answer to your question is yes, no problem.

My brain says yes.

My heart says "do it slowly."

It may be a little simplistic of me but I always think to myself in a case like this, if a member of my family suffered as they did, I don't think I would be too hung up about the treatment of the guilty.

Ian

"do it slowly."

Mr Pierrepoint specialised in a very quick & painless solution.
Unfortunately for us we no longer have this available & would be perfect in this one individual case

I have always been amazed at the behaviour of large groups of individuals who gather outside prisons and courtrooms for the entrance or emergence of the accused or sentenced killers of various kinds, so that they can vent their anger by rioting and attacking the transport in which the prisoners are being carried.

Why do they feel so personally involved in the acts of others that have nothing to do with them, to the extent that they need to vent real fury at complete strangers?

Displacement, perhaps?

quote:

If you 'support' his assault (or shipping to the jungle) would you also perhaps allow him to be tortured, or used as a guinea pig for medical experiments? Any echoes of history in those suggestions anyone?

What sort of 'human rights' did this 'human being' show to his victims?

I do not condone mob violence or torture, but there are times when I do wonder just why we allow so many 'rights' to 'humans' such as this.

As per Ians post, some crimes are truly 'inhuman & vile' & no amount of 'removal of liberty' puts that right.

I think it's such a shame that some of you guys are not only apparently glad that Huntley has been attacked, but would advocate torture. Which is what you are advocating by mentioning Burma and "do it slowly."

And yes, I am sounding a bit superior on this one. It is not hard to be when confronted with torture as the proposed justice for a disgusting murder.

Don't forget everybody who tortures believes they are right........

And as for the old chestnut about what human rights did the perpetrator show. Just because Huntley has no morals or sense of justice, I am not going to abandon mine.

Don, somewhat gloomy downtown York.

quote:

As per Ians post, some crimes are truly 'inhuman & vile' & no amount of 'removal of liberty' puts that right.

Interesting. Is that what punishment is for? To "put it right"?

How would the killing of Huntley "put it right"? The girls remain dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve2701:

quote:

If you 'support' his assault (or shipping to the jungle) would you also perhaps allow him to be tortured, or used as a guinea pig for medical experiments? Any echoes of history in those suggestions anyone?

What sort of 'human rights' did this 'human being' show to his victims?

I do not condone mob violence or torture, but there are times when I do wonder just why we allow so many 'rights' to 'humans' such as this.

As per Ians post, some crimes are truly 'inhuman & vile' & no amount of 'removal of liberty' puts that right.

I agree with your last sentence. Absolutely nothing can put right his actions, and wishing to see him hurt or killed would be included in that. We don't have the death sentence so therefore we make a committment to incarcerating him, and in so doing I think he has the right to protection from other inmates.


Bruce

Don

I have never believed in capital punishment but I do beleive in very long spells inside prison for serious offences involving violence.

We all know that Huntley will die in prison and I see nothing wrong in trying to reduce the cost of that to the taxpayer.

Sending him to a low cost country is fine as it will reduce cost and negate some of the arguments of why should the taxpayer support him for life rather than just hang him.

As long as the foreign prison signs an agreement that he will be treated the same as other prisoners, there is no problem.

Gary Glitter did time in Thailand and despite his many protests that he was stitched up, I cannot recall him complaining about his actual treatment by the Thai prison service.

Regards

Mick

*

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:

I agree with your last sentence. Absolutely nothing can put right his actions, and wishing to see him hurt or killed would be included in that. We don't have the death sentence so therefore we make a committment to incarcerating him, and in so doing I think he has the right to protection from other inmates.


Bruce

i dont wholly disagree with what you say but i wonder if we would feel the same if it was one of our daughters.

quote:

Originally posted by 151:

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:

I agree with your last sentence. Absolutely nothing can put right his actions, and wishing to see him hurt or killed would be included in that. We don't have the death sentence so therefore we make a committment to incarcerating him, and in so doing I think he has the right to protection from other inmates.


Bruce

i dont wholly disagree with what you say but i wonder if we would feel the same if it was one of our daughters.

Absolutely. But that is the point of the law-it is administered by the state not by an individual or relative.

How would I feel/act; no idea. Thank goodness. Would an act of bloody vengeance make me feel better? I think the answer is probably not actually, or at least in doubt.

Bruce

I am glad there are laws in place to protect me from myself in the unimaginably horrific event that my daughter was raped and or murdered by someone like Huntley. Two wrongs really don't make a right.

The sad thing about so-called 'inhuman' crime is they are uniquely committed by humans not monsters or animals. They are all too human.

As for packing people like Huntley off to Burma or other exotic places (which seems like a very good idea)I would like to think his relatives would have a right to visit him in a UK prison. I dont much care about his rights to have visitors but I care that his relatives should be able to visit him if they so desire. No doubt there are people in pain who love him - no doubt they have suffered enough without making things worse. There are always so many victims in situations like this.

Bruce

I wonder, are you a parent?

I think that if anybody did anything untowards to either of my daughters I would find it hard to remain dispassionate.

Have a think about the last two minutes in the lives of those girls; the last to survive would have seen her friend killed, and know what was going to happen to her.

I really hate to think about what happened to them in the last five or six hours of their short lives.

I wonder what the world would look like if every decision we made as a species was based on an emotional reaction. Cooler heads should prevail, IMO, despite the bloodlust popular amongst some archair warrior habituees of the fantasy world of "Judge Dredd" and the like.

PS: My replies are in a bit of a time lag at the mo' due to being a naughty boy with a too-much-information video earlier, in a similar debate.

Frightening the women and horses and other delicate sensibilities and so on...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
Bruce

I wonder, are you a parent?

I think that if anybody did anything untowards to either of my daughters I would find it hard to remain dispassionate.

Have a think about the last two minutes in the lives of those girls; the last to survive would have seen her friend killed, and know what was going to happen to her.

I really hate to think about what happened to them in the last five or six hours of their short lives.

I'm not a parent, but then not only parents are capable of feeling empathy or compassion. Don't mistake my views on this event with being dispassionate about his crimes, however my revulsion at his deeds does not mean I am celebrating some sort of violent revenge attack by convicted prisoners. I don't celebrate that (or rather 'love it' as the OP stated). When he dies at the natural end of his life in jail I'll be happy that he has been punished and that he has offended no more.

It is precisely because you could not feel dispassionate if he had offended aganst your family that you would not be involved in planning his sentencing or detention-that is the job of the state.

Bruce

Mike,
Nothing can ever, ever put right the crime he committed. I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to think that.
I would appreciate it if you would take it in the way it was meant.
Trying to put any sort of a price on two (very) young innocent lives is unthinkable.
I just wish he had not committed the crime in the first instance.
So why is he away inside then? Just to stop him doing it again and for public / his own safety? Or perhaps there is the fact that he murdered two young children and he must 'pay''be punished' (somehow atone? does the English language have a better word / phrase for it?) for that crime by having his 'liberty' removed?
Perhaps you can put that into better English for me if it is incorrect.

"The true test of society is how well it treats its prisoners and old people."

This phrase has its roots in several different sources. Pearl Buck in My Several Worlds p. 337 wrote "Yet somehow our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or to be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is in the way that it cares for its helpless members."

Winston Churchill also wrote in Closing the Ring on p. 679 that, "Nothing can be more abhorrent to democracy than to imprison a person or keep him in prison because he is unpopular. This is really the test of civilization."

Dostoevsky reportedly said that "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."

Lastly John F. Kennedy in a message to Congress said that "On the basis of
his study of the world's great civilizations, the historian Toynbee concluded that a society's quality and durability can best be measured 'by the respect and care given its elderly citizens.'"