Radar detectors

Posted by: Bosh on 09 August 2001

My 3 year old Bel 855 has gone and requires a new main board (£140 fitted against £230 new!! - shame its not made by Naim!!)
which I'm loathe to do

Any UK experiences of the newer Bels or other models or solutions such as Laser jammers. I've read up on the Geodesy GPS systems which ID the Digital cameras the Radar Detectors dont but they dont ID the hand held Lasers and mobile Gatsos

Of course I intend to use them purely to detect automatic shop doors, Orange transmitters but if they also detect the occasional Gatso painted in army camouflaged colours hidden behind foliage or Police officer hidden in a hedge when I inadvertently creep past the speed limit then all the better

Posted on: 07 May 2004 by Rockingdoc
As the owner of a nutter car (Evo VIII) fitted with the radar stuff, I was previously a strong advocate of the "Road Angel".
The nutter car led to an increased interest in driving, which in turn led to seeking out some advanced driver training.
Exposure to Police driving instructors has turned me into a born-again evangelical road law abider. If you think you can break the speed laws safely you are as much of an arrogant idiot as I was.
Posted on: 07 May 2004 by BLT
Interesting....I know a few Traffic Police officers and they all speed to excess when they are driving their own cars. One of these officers (who was involved in training police drivers) had the nickname "Earnest Thrasher".
Posted on: 07 May 2004 by Steve Toy
quote:
Exposure to Police driving instructors has turned me into a born-again evangelical road law abider. If you think you can break the speed laws safely you are as much of an arrogant idiot as I was.


Did they ever take you out at night?

You can certainly break speed laws safely on occasions where the limit has been set (or reset) arbitrarily low. If what I'm saying to you right now were complete bollocks than that 3500 deaths/year figure would have come down over the last few years. But it hasn't, and it won't until more onus is given to drivers as to how they decide to proceed.



Regards,

Steve.
Posted on: 07 May 2004 by John Sheridan
quote:
Exposure to Police driving instructors has turned me into a born-again evangelical road law abider. If you think you can break the speed laws safely you are as much of an arrogant idiot as I was.


I've just done a course with a police driving instructor. When he first got in the car he solemnly informed me of the perils of exceeding the speed limit and how he wasn't able to condone it. 5 minutes later (in a national zone) he was saying "come on, put your foot down, the road's clear." Chatting to him he said their training is quite strict about not exceeding the limit in 30-50mph zones as they're the ones that have most of the hazards but in the 60/70 zones they're happy to just drive to the conditions.
Posted on: 07 May 2004 by Martin D
Have a look here, safety cant be measured in miles per hour.
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/
Posted on: 08 May 2004 by Steve Toy
Quoted from the above:

Make no mistake, speed enforcement is the opposite of safe driving skills. It sends the clear message that drivers are not to be trusted to set appropriate speeds. And it denies those who are skilled enough to set high appropriate speeds in good conditions the right to benefit from their skill. The more we emphasize tight controls the less we encouraged safe skilled behaviours. It is wrongly assumed that "we can afford to do without" drivers setting appropriate speed for the conditions.



Regards,

Steve.
Posted on: 08 May 2004 by Martin D
Just saw Autocar with the latest 'contributing factors
in UK accidents' from DfT which put excessive speed at
No. 7 with 12.5%.
Will they drop the one third lie now?

Staffordshire CRP, Graham Jones,
is in Auto Express trying to defend 7 Gatsos in 1 mile at Great Wyrley.
Posted on: 08 May 2004 by Martin D
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=480364
And this BTW
Posted on: 08 May 2004 by kevinrt
Safe speed is an interesting site making some good arguments.
There are also many staements on safe driving with no suppoting evidence. It's no good knocking the Police/Government "statistics" by just saying they're wrong and not providing alternative proof.

One section contains this paragraph:

Imagine the driver who bases his speed choice on the speed limit. He won't slow down where there are children playing. He won't slow down when the weather is bad. He won't slow down if it looks as if someone ahead might pull out. He won't slow down in a narrow residential street with parked cars on either side. He won't slow down for a blind bend or a greasy roundabout. He might not even slow down when there's stationary traffic ahead. You would be very lucky indeed to complete a single journey if you didn't slow because of hazards ahead.

The suggestion is that there is a class of drivers who drive at the speed limit and never vary from it regardless of conditions (brick walls, the end of their driveway, the back wall of their garage?).

This sort of statement does their cause no favours at all.

I would agree that if drivers could be educated to make safe decisions about appropriate speed then that would be a good thing, but I doubt there's many out there who could pass a test of that standard and then be relied upon to use those skills routinely.
Posted on: 08 May 2004 by Steve Toy
There exists nevertheless a growing culture of believing that driving strictly within the speed limit is sufficient to be immune from collisions.

Imagine a stretch of road that includes long straights, sweeping bends and a couple of sharp corners. Along the straight bits the safe maximum speed would be 70 to 80 mph, through the sweeping bends it would be around 55 mph and the sharp corners would be third gear jobs at around 35mph.

The two approaches to ensuring that drivers proceed safely along this road would be as follows:

The Nanny State approach

Impose a blanket speed limit of 40mph along the entire stretch of road so that if someone did "forget" to slow down for the two sharp bends they wouldn't crash. Enforce this limit with a couple of Gatsos on the straight bits (Gatsos only work on straight stretches of road.) This would still conform to the requirement of placing cameras within 1km of accident blackspots.

The inexperienced/poor driver will slow down for the cameras on the straight bits but still manage to crash on one of the sharp corners.

The individual taking responsibility for his own driving approach

Keep the road at national speed limit but put up warning signs on the approach to the sharp corners with an advisory speed limit of 35mph round the corners.

In order to reduce the road deaths by 40% (government target) I would suggest the following:

1) Put our clocks forward by one hour bringing us in line with Central European Time so in winter we would be at GMT+1 (BST) and in summer GMT+2 (BST+1.)

The RoSPA believe that this could save as many as 1000 lives a year, mainly children. I'm sorry but saving the lives of children walking home fom school in daylight instead of darkness in December shoud be considered more important than a few Scottish Highland farmers who don't want to miss Emmerdale.

2) Make the Highways Agency responsible for road maintainance and setting speed limits on all A and B roads as well as just the motorways and trunk roads. The rules for setting speed limits should be consistently applied nationwide. That way local nanny councils wil no longer be able to act upon the cries of vocal minorities for arbitrary lowered limits in their area. Also drivers will be able to guess for themselves what the limit is by observing environmental cues such as the presence/density of buildings (especially schools/hospitals/shops etc) along either side of the road.

3) Identify and engineer out all accident blackspots especially busy T junctions that perhaps should have mini roundabouts or traffic lights. (The sequencing of all traffic lights should be determined by road traffic experts working for the Highways Agency and not by meddling politicians who seek to exacerbate congestion in order to encourage phase shift of transport mode.)

4) Raise speed limits on motorways to 80mph when the road surface is dry. Penalise poor lane discipline and tailgating ahead of those who simply exceed the speed limit in fine conditions.

5) Make motorway driving part of the driving test.

6) Halve the number of speed cameras and ensure that the remaining ones are within 50m and not 1km of a given accident blackspot.

7) Increase the number of police patrol cars on the roads to look out for erratic driving, bald tyres etc.


Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on Sun 09 May 2004 at 5:47.]
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by long-time-dead
I experienced a differing approach to speed control on a trip to the north of Spain.

On a rural country road - very straight, good surface, brilliant visibility, usually dry - the temptation would be to stick the boot down.

Appearing on the road was a set of traffic lights - no junction, just lights

The lights sensed your speed - too fast on approach and they turned to red. Acceptable speed - they remained green.

A camera would flash you if you jumped the red light.

It's a similar principle to the speed cameras we all know and "love" so much but it was an interesting twist.

My friend explained that coursts and insurance companies are less forgiving for red light jumping as you can easily kill someone at low speed by jumping a red light in a busy area.

At least they show consistency......

FWIW - my friend tends to drive at a stable speed in the countryside, not the point and squirt approach that we often see here.
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by Steve Toy
That way your friend doesn't have to concentrate and can admire the view! I hate drivers who won't increase their speed along straight bits and pootle along at 45mph with a long queue of traffic behind them.


On a rural country road - very straight, good surface, brilliant visibility, usually dry - the temptation would be to stick the boot down.


And what exactly would be wrong with that?



Regards,

Steve.
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by kevinrt
Stephen

how can you champion individual choice/judgement on speed and not allow the same to someone who wants to drive at 45 mph?

You just need to wait for a safe spot to overtake.
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by Steve Toy
Because someone driving 15mph below the speed limit is doing so for one reason: they'd rather not be driving and are day dreaming. They are NOT exercising any judgment (unless they are mindful of being under the influence of alcohol or are extremely tired.)

Safe places to overtake are often few and far between especially if you are at the back of the queue forming behind them. Thus one selfish car occupant has dictated the pace to a dozen others.



Regards,

Steve.
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by Top Cat
As an experiment, for the past few days since my possible 'violation' (re: 46 or so on a 40 - I'm just waiting it out now to see what happens) I have been rigidly sticking to the speed limit at all times.

I will say this: with the level of concentration it takes to stick rigidly to the speed limit, especially in areas where that limit is unnecessarily low, I am a worse driver. I am spending too much time checking that I'm not drifting past the limit - this is especially true in the 'pointless 40' zones.

On motorways, however, I've enjoyed poodling along at 70 - my fuel economy is higher and I'm getting where I want to be roughly as quickly.

However, my argument is that rigorously enforcing unnecessarily low speed limits may actually be making people drive in a manner which is less safe.

Try it - just for a couple of journeys - and you'll see what I mean...

John
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by kevinrt
Top Cat
May just be a period of adjustment. You'll get used to what 30 mph (or whatever) feels like in your car (gear, revs. engine noise etc.) and won't need to check the speedo so often.

Steven (apologies for mis-spelling your name previously)

Why do you assume your judgement is better than those slower drivers you decry. I'm guessing you can't know their individual driving records.
Have you taken some additional driving tuition to raise your own standards?

I can see the point of some of your previous arguments in principle, but truthfully I don't believe that most drivers are competent enough for what you suggest.
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by kevinrt:
Top Cat
May just be a period of adjustment. You'll get used to what 30 mph (or whatever) feels like in your car (gear, revs. engine noise etc.) and won't need to check the speedo so often.


True. I've been sticking to 20mph, 30mph and 40mph speed limits for years now and don't find it a problem at all.

60mph speed limits I regard as advisory.
Posted on: 09 May 2004 by Steve Toy
Why do you assume your judgement is better than those slower drivers you decry. I'm guessing you can't know their individual driving records.

I make no such assumption.

The assumption that I am making is that to drive along a straight stretch of road in fine conditions 15 mph below the national speed limit is not to be exercising judgement at all, and is plain lazy driving.

Not exercising judgement faculties that one may possess is not to say the individual in question does not possess the judgement capability to the same degree as I or any other driver who proceeds as quickly as it is safe to do so.

More likely the slow driver may be thinking,

"I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere, I'm enjoying the view, and as for the queue behind me, fuck 'em! In any case I'm exercising my Blair-given right not to break the law."

rather than,

"45mph is fast enough for me and I feel scared if I go any faster."

If the latter were the case I'd be asking why the driver in question was so lacking in confidence at the wheel. Confidence is not the same as competence, as irrational fears can mar ones ability to exercise balanced judgement and appropriate risk asessment.

Most drivers gain confidence with experience although I accept that bad experience, i.e: a near miss or worse can bring about a setback (that should eventualy move you forward once you've got over the initial shock) in the learning process that goes with the experience of driving; we truly begin to learn to drive only after we have passed the driving test.

I also feel that becoming a better driver is about learning from past mistakes. I also believe that taking risks in my impetuous youth has made me become a better driver:

How did I learn how to turn into a skid? ...or avoid hitting the cat this evening that ran out in front of me within a distance of no more than three car lengths by stopping in a straight line when I was travelling at 40 mph (the speed limit on this particular stretch of road)?

ABS certainly helped but I'm equally happy without it. This evening's experience with the cat did teach me that the stopping distances printed on the back of the Highway Code for given speeds are utter bullshit.

Government propaganda (The Speed-kills myth) is teaching drivers to become lazy, and switch off from the interactive process with the environment that driving safely and efficiently is really al about.

Reducing journey times without compromising safety is beneficial to the economy, and I always strive to drive as fast as it is safe to do so whilst still allowing comfortable margins of error - not just my potential error but also that of other road users.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on Mon 10 May 2004 at 4:10.]
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by Rockingdoc
ABS does not improve braking distance. A car with all wheels locked will stop in a shorter distance (slightly) than a car with ABS. ABS improves steering when braking, but you said you were braking in a straight line. There is nothing fancy to learn in straight line braking, you just jump on the pedal. If you want to steer as well it is a different matter.
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by count.d
I was in Luton centre three weeks ago for the first time. I was traveling on a dual carriageway with a lorry on my left. I sped up a little, as I don't like traveling at the side of lorries, and as I nosed ahead I was suddenly flashed from the front. I quickly looked down at my speedo and I was doing 40mph. I looked at the speed limit signs and it had changed down to 30mph.

I'm not making an excuse for breaking the limit, but I was suprised that it was 30mph on a dual carriageway with no buildings either side. I hadn't seen the signs or camera because of the lorry.

What I found really strange was the camera at the front pointing at my face and then flashing. The ones that are forward facing don't flash as it can startle the driver. I've since looked on the net and can find no information on forward facing cameras that flash.

Luckily, I never got a letter.

So if anyone wants to make some money from the council, perhaps you could speed on this section of the road, get flashed in the eyes, bang your car into the barrier and sue them for all the damage, plus compensation, due them causing your temporary loss of vision
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by Brian OReilly
quote:
Originally posted by count.d:
What I found really strange was the camera at the front pointing at my face and then flashing. The ones that are forward facing don't flash as it can startle the driver. I've since looked on the net and can find no information on forward facing cameras that flash.



It may have been targeting the other carriageway. Have experienced this once myself.

Brian OReilly
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by Martin Clark
No, the ones in Luton really do face the front of the car (Stuart St.). They're a smaller box than the usual Gatso, and have been like that for about 5 years - I'm not sure what purpose they serve, beyond startling drivers.
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by Steve Toy
quote:
but I was suprised that it was 30mph on a dual carriageway with no buildings either side. I hadn't seen the signs or camera because of the lorry.



An example of an arbitrary speed limit that was more than likely revised down from 40 or 50 in recent years. Cameras don't rake in the requisite cash when they only enforce an appropriately set limit from years ago. The downward change in speed limits nearly always coincides with the arrival of the cameras.

In addition the lorry to your left obscured the 30 sign...

In all, it's one in the eye for those glib little twats who say "if you don't speed you won't get flashed."

I wonder what percentage of speeding offences are a case of drivers being tricked into believing the limit was actually higher....in other words they were speeding unintentionally.

My licence is still clean but I fear it's only a matter of time before I get caught out on an unfamiliar stretch of road where you observe all the changing limits (and make every endeavour to abide by them) and it goes thus:

Down to 30 for a built up area.

Then back up to 50 where there is nothing built directly along either side the road.

Then down to then down to 30 because there is.

Then stop at the traffic lights immediately before entering another area without buildings on either side.

Then accelerate away from the lights having sat at them for a minute or so up to 50 mph and zap!

Simple Simon didn't say the limit had gone back up to 50 just because there are a few trees and grass again, did he!

This scenario very nearly happened to me on the Chester Road (A452) heading into Streetly from the North. It is a bloody wide road and has had its speed limits heavily revised downwards in recent years.

Why aren't repeater signs painted directly on the the cameras?



Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on Mon 10 May 2004 at 16:33.]
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by Derek Wright
Why aren't repeater signs painted directly on the the cameras?


Why aren't the repeater signs on every lamp post for 30mph as well as all the other speed limits - if a speed limit is for safety then tell tell and tell the driver what the speed limit is.

Derek

<< >>
Posted on: 10 May 2004 by Steve Toy
quote:
Why aren't the repeater signs on every lamp post for 30mph as well as all the other speed limits


Because stupid as it may seem, it would be illegal. You can only have repeater 30mph limit signs where there are no lamp posts...



Regards,

Steve.