Speakers Corner
Posted by: John Bailey on 03 November 2003
My Kans have served me well. Bought for 200 quid (including Kan2 stands) about six years ago I have enjoyed them on the end of a Nait, NAP140 and now a NAP200. With the arrival of each and every new and more advanced (read expensive) equipment upstream I have appreciated their talents but failed in taming them as much as I would like. So I am in the market for a new speaker.
I have a general favour with standmounts rather than floorstanders though I will consider them. It would also be nice if they worked well with my second system (a Quad 67/34/306) if the need arises in the future.
Grahams (my usual dealer) demonstrated the B&W N805 to me and I was impressed though not exactly set on fire by them. The N805 signatures are just the ticket (and the way Grahams think I should go) but I am uncomfortable about spending £3k on speakers to replace Kans which cost me £200 (though I am in the fortunate position of being able to afford them if need be).
I want something as clear and fast as a Kan but smoother and easier on the ear with better dynamic range at low volumes (whilst not puting the windows and neighbours out at higher levels)... oh and cheaper than N805 sigs.
Under consideration are Harbeth Compact HL-7-ES2 and HL-P3ES-2, Spendor SP3/1P and SP2/3, Epos M12, LS3/5A variants, Linn Katan, B&W 705 and N805's and well anything else really that isn't too wacky or difficult to audition.
Obviously it will all come down to Earsay but experience and advice is most welcome.
Upstream of these are an LP12/CD5&FC2/NAC202/NAPSC/HiCap and NAP200.
I have a general favour with standmounts rather than floorstanders though I will consider them. It would also be nice if they worked well with my second system (a Quad 67/34/306) if the need arises in the future.
Grahams (my usual dealer) demonstrated the B&W N805 to me and I was impressed though not exactly set on fire by them. The N805 signatures are just the ticket (and the way Grahams think I should go) but I am uncomfortable about spending £3k on speakers to replace Kans which cost me £200 (though I am in the fortunate position of being able to afford them if need be).
I want something as clear and fast as a Kan but smoother and easier on the ear with better dynamic range at low volumes (whilst not puting the windows and neighbours out at higher levels)... oh and cheaper than N805 sigs.
Under consideration are Harbeth Compact HL-7-ES2 and HL-P3ES-2, Spendor SP3/1P and SP2/3, Epos M12, LS3/5A variants, Linn Katan, B&W 705 and N805's and well anything else really that isn't too wacky or difficult to audition.
Obviously it will all come down to Earsay but experience and advice is most welcome.
Upstream of these are an LP12/CD5&FC2/NAC202/NAPSC/HiCap and NAP200.
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by NB
John,
Spending £3k on a pair of speakers for your current speakers would be a complete waste of money. They would be way out of context for your system.
You should be able to find a decent pair of speakers out of the speakers you mention. My favorite at about that price range are the Mission 780's which for me are one of the best speakers on the market.
If you were lucky to have £3k to spend on your system then a leap up to a cdx2 would be a start!
Regards
NB
Spending £3k on a pair of speakers for your current speakers would be a complete waste of money. They would be way out of context for your system.
You should be able to find a decent pair of speakers out of the speakers you mention. My favorite at about that price range are the Mission 780's which for me are one of the best speakers on the market.
If you were lucky to have £3k to spend on your system then a leap up to a cdx2 would be a start!
Regards
NB
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by John Bailey
NB,
Well I haven't heard the Mission 780's but their website gives a recommended retail price of £350 for the 'SE' version. I think this may be pitching things a bit low and certainly no Kan replacement (though if anyone has found them to be a worthwhile replacement for the Kan then please let the forum know).
Although I haven't heard the CDX2, I did dem the original CDX against the CD5/FC2 a couple of years ago and frankly it was better but not overwhelmingly so. Just because the CD5 is entry level Naim does not mean that it is not a very fine CD player in it's own right. When I did the N805 Sig dem I did query if the money was not better spent on a CDX2 but was told an emphatic no on the grounds that the CD5 was already excellent, the CDX2 in naked form only marginally better (for the extra outlay) and that developments in SACD or DVDA might overtake such an expensive machine - better to wait and see how things pan out in the market. I would need good loudspeakers in 10 years time so this was a better investment whatever was on the front end of them.
£3k of speakers on the end of about £5-6k of electronics does not seem a waste of money and my ears told me that. But before shelling out that sort of cash I would like to know that I have made the right decision as regards (cheaper) alternatives and what other peoples long term experiences have been.
I auditioned two loudspeakers today: Wilson Benesch ACR and Spendor SP3/1. I did want to hear Harbeth Compact 7's but they were out of stock and (in hindsight) probably physically too large for my room.
I wasn't that impressed with the Wilsons - I don't think that I could get along with them as they were muffled/veiled in quality. The Spendor's were much better and very pleasant though a bit too warm - perhaps this being made worse by the electronics (Copeland CD, Valve Pre and Transistor power). I might have a longer second demo.
Kame home and listened to the Kans and appreciated all their good qualities. Oh well....
Well I haven't heard the Mission 780's but their website gives a recommended retail price of £350 for the 'SE' version. I think this may be pitching things a bit low and certainly no Kan replacement (though if anyone has found them to be a worthwhile replacement for the Kan then please let the forum know).
Although I haven't heard the CDX2, I did dem the original CDX against the CD5/FC2 a couple of years ago and frankly it was better but not overwhelmingly so. Just because the CD5 is entry level Naim does not mean that it is not a very fine CD player in it's own right. When I did the N805 Sig dem I did query if the money was not better spent on a CDX2 but was told an emphatic no on the grounds that the CD5 was already excellent, the CDX2 in naked form only marginally better (for the extra outlay) and that developments in SACD or DVDA might overtake such an expensive machine - better to wait and see how things pan out in the market. I would need good loudspeakers in 10 years time so this was a better investment whatever was on the front end of them.
£3k of speakers on the end of about £5-6k of electronics does not seem a waste of money and my ears told me that. But before shelling out that sort of cash I would like to know that I have made the right decision as regards (cheaper) alternatives and what other peoples long term experiences have been.
I auditioned two loudspeakers today: Wilson Benesch ACR and Spendor SP3/1. I did want to hear Harbeth Compact 7's but they were out of stock and (in hindsight) probably physically too large for my room.
I wasn't that impressed with the Wilsons - I don't think that I could get along with them as they were muffled/veiled in quality. The Spendor's were much better and very pleasant though a bit too warm - perhaps this being made worse by the electronics (Copeland CD, Valve Pre and Transistor power). I might have a longer second demo.
Kame home and listened to the Kans and appreciated all their good qualities. Oh well....
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by NB
John,
Don't be so harsh on the Missions they are a great pair of speakers and on the end of a ood system can produce some remarkable sounds.
If you are intent on spending £3k on a pair of speakers then have a look at the Neat MFS's they work extremely well with Naim amps and come highly recommended by a few forum members.
Some may argue that they really need the minimum of a CDX to get them working but you can also argue that they give you plenty of room for up-grades.
Give them an audition, I personally would prefer them over any of the other speakers you mention. They are a very capable speaker and will certainly reward you if you up-grade in the future.
Regards
NB
Don't be so harsh on the Missions they are a great pair of speakers and on the end of a ood system can produce some remarkable sounds.
If you are intent on spending £3k on a pair of speakers then have a look at the Neat MFS's they work extremely well with Naim amps and come highly recommended by a few forum members.
Some may argue that they really need the minimum of a CDX to get them working but you can also argue that they give you plenty of room for up-grades.
Give them an audition, I personally would prefer them over any of the other speakers you mention. They are a very capable speaker and will certainly reward you if you up-grade in the future.
Regards
NB
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by John Bailey
NB,
Well, I will have a search about and see if I can find a local dealer near to me (for the Missions). Must be worth a whirl.
I am not intent on spending £3k rather more reluctant to spend £3k if I can find a speaker that can meet my expectations at a lower price.
I have heard good things about the Neat's but at £3.5k including stands they are beyond my budget.
Regards,
John
Well, I will have a search about and see if I can find a local dealer near to me (for the Missions). Must be worth a whirl.
I am not intent on spending £3k rather more reluctant to spend £3k if I can find a speaker that can meet my expectations at a lower price.
I have heard good things about the Neat's but at £3.5k including stands they are beyond my budget.
Regards,
John
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by NB
John,
Happy hunting, finding a apir of speakers that meet your requirements is going to be difficult, There are many fine speakers out there.
I have heard the Neats are starting to hit the second hand market at arround the £2.5K mark. They are certainly worth an audition.
One silly question, If you like the Kan's so much why don't you just buy another pair?
Regards
NB
Happy hunting, finding a apir of speakers that meet your requirements is going to be difficult, There are many fine speakers out there.
I have heard the Neats are starting to hit the second hand market at arround the £2.5K mark. They are certainly worth an audition.
One silly question, If you like the Kan's so much why don't you just buy another pair?
Regards
NB
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by NB
Ps
one name not mentioned is the Totem range of speakers. They come highly recomended by Tom Alves and Frank Abela. I am sure they would be happy to point you in the right direction.
Regards
NB
one name not mentioned is the Totem range of speakers. They come highly recomended by Tom Alves and Frank Abela. I am sure they would be happy to point you in the right direction.
Regards
NB
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by bruce
John, I have sent you a message, look in your PT box.
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by fatcat
John I have two suggestions. You may think the second one is a joke. But I am not joking.
1. Dynaudio 52SE. £950.00
I heard them in the dynaudio demo room at the Manchester Sound and vision show. They are a derivative of the Contour 1.3. They are fast, dynamic, smooth and have a low-end performance you would not think possible from such a small speaker.
They where at the end of Cyrus8 CD/amp/ PSU. The music produced was, by a huge margin better than that produced by Cyrus themselves. It was more enjoyable to listen to than the Naim CD5i/Nait5i demo. IMO.
2. Royd A7 or derivative £20-£30 on ebay.
They are clear and fast but are smoother than Kans. I DO NOT like the sound of Kans at all, but I have a pair of A7 series2 at the end of 62/110/APS2, which I think sound superb. I can’t say if the bass will be an improvement. At £20.00 it may be worth a try.
Fatcat
1. Dynaudio 52SE. £950.00
I heard them in the dynaudio demo room at the Manchester Sound and vision show. They are a derivative of the Contour 1.3. They are fast, dynamic, smooth and have a low-end performance you would not think possible from such a small speaker.
They where at the end of Cyrus8 CD/amp/ PSU. The music produced was, by a huge margin better than that produced by Cyrus themselves. It was more enjoyable to listen to than the Naim CD5i/Nait5i demo. IMO.
2. Royd A7 or derivative £20-£30 on ebay.
They are clear and fast but are smoother than Kans. I DO NOT like the sound of Kans at all, but I have a pair of A7 series2 at the end of 62/110/APS2, which I think sound superb. I can’t say if the bass will be an improvement. At £20.00 it may be worth a try.
Fatcat
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by J.N.
Hi John
If you enjoy that Kan thang; the Neat MFS would be right up your boulevard I reckon.
But; a bit pricey as you say.
If you really want to do this on the cheap, don't ignore a pair of s/h Linn Saras.
I use a pair on my number two system, on the end of a CD3/112/150 and they sound great.
A bit like the Kan, with balls and real bass.
Good luck.
If you enjoy that Kan thang; the Neat MFS would be right up your boulevard I reckon.
But; a bit pricey as you say.
If you really want to do this on the cheap, don't ignore a pair of s/h Linn Saras.
I use a pair on my number two system, on the end of a CD3/112/150 and they sound great.
A bit like the Kan, with balls and real bass.
Good luck.
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by John Bailey
NB, One pair of Kans is enough! I want to improve things not add to my dilema (they don't work well with the Quad anyway if you were thinking about them for the second system). You are right, finding a replacement will be hard.
Bruce, Alex and JN perhaps the MFS is the answer - worth searching out a demo. Grahams stock Neat but as far as I know not the MFS though they may do so in the near future.
Fatcat, will check out the Royd A7's on ebay. Must be worth the money if nothing else. I have enjoyed Royds before (though some time ago)
Bruce, Alex and JN perhaps the MFS is the answer - worth searching out a demo. Grahams stock Neat but as far as I know not the MFS though they may do so in the near future.
Fatcat, will check out the Royd A7's on ebay. Must be worth the money if nothing else. I have enjoyed Royds before (though some time ago)
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by alex95
You have a lot of dems and listening ahead of you and your shortlist looks spot on. I have two of the speakers you mention, the Epos M12 and the Harbeth Compact 7ES2s.
Both very different but have their own attributes, the Epos may initially sound more exciting but the Harbeths literary just disappear, they are fantastic.
One interesting point is your second system in that you use a Quad 306 power amp. When I bought the Harbeths I got them direct and talked to their designer Alan Shaw who designed them using the 306 as the power amp. I use a Sugden A21 and Nait 5/fc2 and they show of both amps talents. If you want to discuss more I would be happy to oblige.
Spence
Both very different but have their own attributes, the Epos may initially sound more exciting but the Harbeths literary just disappear, they are fantastic.
One interesting point is your second system in that you use a Quad 306 power amp. When I bought the Harbeths I got them direct and talked to their designer Alan Shaw who designed them using the 306 as the power amp. I use a Sugden A21 and Nait 5/fc2 and they show of both amps talents. If you want to discuss more I would be happy to oblige.
Spence
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by John Bailey
Spence, I would like to hear the Harbeths and Harbeth recommended KJ West One near Harley Street but they were out of stock and a bit vague as to when they would have some more in. I think that they would be a bit too large physically for my room but as I say I would like to hear them some time. Interesting point about the 306 which though not as good as the NAP200 is still very satisfying.
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by alex95
Yeah for a speaker called compact they are anything but. You do owe yourself to hear them. I have the same prob at the present that I moved to a smaller house and dont really have the room for them, but I have had good results from a foot from the back wall. Have you tried Progressive Audio in Gillingham, though he doesnt stock Naim
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by John G.
quote:
Originally posted by John Bailey:
I want something as clear and fast as a Kan but smoother and easier on the ear with better dynamic range at low volumes (whilst not puting the windows and neighbours out at higher levels)... oh and cheaper than N805 sigs.
Under consideration are Harbeth Compact HL-7-ES2 and HL-P3ES-2, Spendor SP3/1P and SP2/3, Epos M12, LS3/5A variants, Linn Katan, B&W 705 and N805's and well anything else really that isn't too wacky or difficult to audition.
Obviously it will all come down to Earsay but experience and advice is most welcome.
Upstream of these are an LP12/CD5&FC2/NAC202/NAPSC/HiCap and NAP200.
I'd add ATC SCM 7 or 12 to the list as well as Neat Petites.
Posted on: 04 November 2003 by joe90
Royds for my money, although 2nd hand of course.
Try for Merlins, Edens (Awesome).
Luck
Joe90
Try for Merlins, Edens (Awesome).
Luck
Joe90
Posted on: 05 November 2003 by TommyT
Also take a look at Shahinians - Compass is about £2.2K and I think Arcs are £3.2K. You will probably love them or hate them but worth an audition.
I believe Grahams carry both models.
Tom
I believe Grahams carry both models.
Tom
Posted on: 05 November 2003 by Frank Abela
John
I'm not sure that you're looking in the right place to make the change here. In my view the CDX2 is quite far beyond the capabilities of a capped CD5, especially in the resolution stakes. Also consider a Chord Anthem DIN-DIN. Borrow one for a few days. It changes the presentation but also improves hugely on resolution and frequency extremes - even with a CD5.
If you remain convinced that a change of speakers is in order, add these options to consider:
Dynaudio Audience 52SE (£950 plus £200 stands) Actually a revised and beefed up 52 rather than based on the old Contour models.
Dynaudio Contour s1.4 (around £1850 if memory serves + stands) Not really my taste but very very capable indeed.
Royd RR3 (£1350 inc stands) - this is one of the best speakers I've heard IMO, but it has its limitations in terms of absolute output due to its tiny size.
Ensure you hear the EPOS m12's on the EPOS open frame stands. They sound completely different, and not half as good, with most other stands. Lovely fun speaker, but probably not better enough than the Kans.
You say you'll consider floorstanders so here are a few:
Dynaudio Audience 72 (£1200) Tallish floorstander with great presence and scale.
Naim Allae (£2000) The Allae has a fairly unique sound (as all Naim speakers do). It's easy to drive, so will suit both systems.
Royd RR2 (£1200) Smallish floorstander with well judged abilities
Totem Arro (£875 - £950 depending on finish) Slim floorstander with surprisingly big sound. Difficult to drive, so can be a problem with the 306 potentially.
Totem Forest (£2000) Lots of fun. Wider than the Arro but the same sort of height, so not particularly imposing.
NB, one of the best speakers I've heard yet is the Totem Mani-2. This is £3420 including the dedicated stands from Partington. I am trying to compare them directly to N805s but I'm not sure when/if I'll be able to do this. At the moment, the Mani-2's are the first set of speakers in 10 years that comfortably beat my Audio Note AN-E's in my house - and I've listened to speakers up to £7k to compare. However, the Mani-2's are outside John's budget, quite room dependent and buggers to drive - I think the 306 would have distinct problems an even the 200 would be quite pushed (although a 250 drives them beautifully).
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
I'm not sure that you're looking in the right place to make the change here. In my view the CDX2 is quite far beyond the capabilities of a capped CD5, especially in the resolution stakes. Also consider a Chord Anthem DIN-DIN. Borrow one for a few days. It changes the presentation but also improves hugely on resolution and frequency extremes - even with a CD5.
If you remain convinced that a change of speakers is in order, add these options to consider:
Dynaudio Audience 52SE (£950 plus £200 stands) Actually a revised and beefed up 52 rather than based on the old Contour models.
Dynaudio Contour s1.4 (around £1850 if memory serves + stands) Not really my taste but very very capable indeed.
Royd RR3 (£1350 inc stands) - this is one of the best speakers I've heard IMO, but it has its limitations in terms of absolute output due to its tiny size.
Ensure you hear the EPOS m12's on the EPOS open frame stands. They sound completely different, and not half as good, with most other stands. Lovely fun speaker, but probably not better enough than the Kans.
You say you'll consider floorstanders so here are a few:
Dynaudio Audience 72 (£1200) Tallish floorstander with great presence and scale.
Naim Allae (£2000) The Allae has a fairly unique sound (as all Naim speakers do). It's easy to drive, so will suit both systems.
Royd RR2 (£1200) Smallish floorstander with well judged abilities
Totem Arro (£875 - £950 depending on finish) Slim floorstander with surprisingly big sound. Difficult to drive, so can be a problem with the 306 potentially.
Totem Forest (£2000) Lots of fun. Wider than the Arro but the same sort of height, so not particularly imposing.
NB, one of the best speakers I've heard yet is the Totem Mani-2. This is £3420 including the dedicated stands from Partington. I am trying to compare them directly to N805s but I'm not sure when/if I'll be able to do this. At the moment, the Mani-2's are the first set of speakers in 10 years that comfortably beat my Audio Note AN-E's in my house - and I've listened to speakers up to £7k to compare. However, the Mani-2's are outside John's budget, quite room dependent and buggers to drive - I think the 306 would have distinct problems an even the 200 would be quite pushed (although a 250 drives them beautifully).
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 05 November 2003 by ARC
I'm temporarily running a pair of second hand 780SEs purchased for my brother's Xmas present. For the price I am quite impressed. I'm not totally convinced at the bottom end yetas they seem a bit boxy but as I have not tried to optimise set up in my system I'm not too concerned.
Brendan
Brendan
Posted on: 05 November 2003 by NB
Quote:-
NB, one of the best speakers I've heard yet is the Totem Mani-2. This is £3420 including the dedicated stands from Partington. I am trying to compare them directly to N805s but I'm not sure when/if I'll be able to do this. At the moment, the Mani-2's are the first set of speakers in 10 years that comfortably beat my Audio Note AN-E's in my house - and I've listened to speakers up to £7k to compare. However, the Mani-2's are outside John's budget, quite room dependent and buggers to drive - I think the 306 would have distinct problems an even the 200 would be quite pushed (although a 250 drives them beautifully).
_______________________________________________________________
Hi Frank,
A certainly Tom Alves has made the same comments on the Totem Mani-2's. I would be interested to read a full report on how good they sound.
Regards
NB
NB, one of the best speakers I've heard yet is the Totem Mani-2. This is £3420 including the dedicated stands from Partington. I am trying to compare them directly to N805s but I'm not sure when/if I'll be able to do this. At the moment, the Mani-2's are the first set of speakers in 10 years that comfortably beat my Audio Note AN-E's in my house - and I've listened to speakers up to £7k to compare. However, the Mani-2's are outside John's budget, quite room dependent and buggers to drive - I think the 306 would have distinct problems an even the 200 would be quite pushed (although a 250 drives them beautifully).
_______________________________________________________________
Hi Frank,
A certainly Tom Alves has made the same comments on the Totem Mani-2's. I would be interested to read a full report on how good they sound.
Regards
NB
Posted on: 05 November 2003 by Bob Edwards
I think Frank is on the right track--the CDX2 is far better than a CD5/Hicap. So I would strongly encourage you to replace the CD5 with a CDX2.
If you must change speakers, I would also strongly suggest at least trying SBLs. They remain one of the best speakers available at any price. The only caveat is that you have to "get" them. If you do, almost nothing else will do. They are addictive...
Best,
Bob
If you must change speakers, I would also strongly suggest at least trying SBLs. They remain one of the best speakers available at any price. The only caveat is that you have to "get" them. If you do, almost nothing else will do. They are addictive...
Best,
Bob
Posted on: 05 November 2003 by John Bailey
OK, many thanks for your ideas.
Whilst I and the dog sit here in "shock & Awe" at the kids and the fireworks they are letting off I have shortlisted the following as likely contenders:
Neat MFS (probably beyond my budget)
Dynaudio 52SE
Harbeth Compact 7ES2 (but probably not compact enough)
Spendor SP3/1P (just compact enough and have left me with some good impressions)
ATC SCM7 (Might be a bit cold - previous ATC's have made me slightly 'edgy' and uncomfortable
Royd RR3 (not sure I like the look)
Naim Allae (Will they be too Kan like?)
B&W N805 (Back to Grahams & their original recommendation.. oh well, can't beat a good dealer).
CDX2 - Well I could trade in against one but I remain unconvinced that it is going to give an all round inprovement of some magnitude. It would have to be much better than the old CDX to convince me otherwise and I have other sources to satisfy as well so I would rather concentrate on the Kans at the moment - I mean, when will I be free of them?
Whilst I and the dog sit here in "shock & Awe" at the kids and the fireworks they are letting off I have shortlisted the following as likely contenders:
Neat MFS (probably beyond my budget)
Dynaudio 52SE
Harbeth Compact 7ES2 (but probably not compact enough)
Spendor SP3/1P (just compact enough and have left me with some good impressions)
ATC SCM7 (Might be a bit cold - previous ATC's have made me slightly 'edgy' and uncomfortable
Royd RR3 (not sure I like the look)
Naim Allae (Will they be too Kan like?)
B&W N805 (Back to Grahams & their original recommendation.. oh well, can't beat a good dealer).
CDX2 - Well I could trade in against one but I remain unconvinced that it is going to give an all round inprovement of some magnitude. It would have to be much better than the old CDX to convince me otherwise and I have other sources to satisfy as well so I would rather concentrate on the Kans at the moment - I mean, when will I be free of them?