Turntable Survey

I have owned an LP12 for approximately 18 years. Currently, it is fitted with an Aro, Armageddon and Lyra Parnassus Mk.1, and sits on a Naim Fraim.

I do not have the skills or experience to keep my LP12 properly tuned at all times. I find this very frustrating, because when my Linn sounds good, it sounds really good!

Last summer I tried a Voyd Reference with an SME V. I was underwhelmed by it.

Yesterday, I purchase an Immedia RPM 2 and RPM tonearm for a great deal. I have always fancied this table and look forward to putting it throught its paces. It has great timing, but will probably sound lean in comparison to the LP12. Nevertheless, I believe it is one of the other few pitch stable tables out there. It should work marvelously with the Parnassus.

Dear All,

Well,where do i start.

currently have :
OPUS 3 Continuo
SME 3009 11
DECCA LONDON SUPER GOLD.

I have had:
Dual old one late 1970
Garrard 301
Garrard 401
Thorens TD 124
LINN LP 12
SANSUI SR 222 1V
MISSION cant remember model no.
MOTH split platter

Would have loved SOURCE but could not afford it.
ALSO the Oxford Acoustics, the expensive one .A friend has one and it is lovely.

Favourite of all TIME !!!!! Jean Francois Le Tallec STAD S, but again could not afford it. A friend has one and it is fabulous.

I Hate moving coils as you need an extra stage of amplification compared to moving magnets and the like,eg decca's. Also dont forget Joe Grado invented the moving coil and moved on to his current designs of FLUX DUMPER design. I believe he was right as i love his cartridges.

LOVE SME and REGA arms as for theyre price the performance represents great value for money.

I today do not consider vinyl to be as good as SACD and top flight CD.I used to be rabidly anti cd until approx 1990 when digital started to be done right. Now i have SACD and believe this is the format to beat.
Vinyl is too noisy and flawed to compete.But is still a fabulous medium as a lot of the vinyl i have will never go onto other formats,so for this, vinyl is indispensible.
But it is not the future.

The future bothers me though,especially if we go to storing on Computers as we will then not own the software but will merely be users of it at the copyright owners convenience.

regrds david

I started off with a Michell Focus One/Hadcock GH228 arm/Sonus Blue Label cartridge. Two years later I entered the moving coil world with the Lentek Entre One that soundly spanked not only the Sonus Blue but all other moving magnets I listened to (Shure 95, ADC XLM, Ortofon VMS 20E and so on).
Thence came the original Systemdek turntable, briefly mated with an AT1100 tonearm, rapidly replaced by the oh-so-good Syrinx PU-2 with mass ring. I managed to go through three PU-2 (another story).
My first LP12 followed, with... the original detachable headshell LV-X, swiftly replaced by the non-detatchable version, with Ittok#1 closely behind. Another 'incident' brought in the services of Ittok #2.
Then Linn made some improvements to the LP12 such as corner bracing. I sold my LP-12 to a friend and bought a new one (black plinth you know) that again had an Ittok. At this point the very coloured Asak was replaced with one of the very first Karmas. This ruled the roost until I heard it in direct comparison (through my own naim amps) with The Source mated with a Zeta arm. This outLinned the Linn and followed me when I moved from UK to US. At some point the Karma was replaced by a Koetsu Black which I denuded and replaced by another Koetsu Black. This second unit was faulty and I decided to go for a Vanderhul MC10 with was a tad more lively although lacking in the palpable creamy and seductive vocals that the Koetsu endowed. When CDs took off to a point where they were better than OK, the turntable was put to rest for over 10 years. A few years ago I bought a used LP12 (#3 for me) with the most excellent Syrinx PU-3. This was eventually rebuilt including replacing the plinth and inner platter/bearing. The PU-3 gave way to an Aro/Prefix. Ironically enough the cartrige I am using is probably one of the least capable of any of the cartridges I've used in the previous 20 years... the Benz Micro. Never fear... a Helikon may be on the way.
I have only scraped the surface of the dozens of cartridges I have owned over this time period. My favourites were the Supex SM-100E, the Karma and the Koetsu.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

There is a lot information available on the Vinyl Asylum regarding tweaking Thorens decks. You will also find links to pages that contain on-line manuals.

Outside of mounting a decent arm, proper sub-chassis adjustment and arm cable dressing pay big dividends with these decks as they do with the LP12. There are many other minor and major changes that one can make, however IMO, many of them are misguided attempts to correct for poor setup.

Chances are that the original foam cores have already been removed from the suspension springs on yours. This is considered to be the original Thorens tweak and does in fact free the suspensions movement and leave the spring damping to the rubber grommets a la LP12.

Linn springs and rubber grommets have been tried by a few Thorens tweakers, however you may have to drill out the sub-chassis pass through holes to accommodate the top grommets (I haven't tried it) and I am not sure if the Linn springs are of the correct compliance wrt the Thorens' floating mass.

Removal of the base board is the next most popular mod (retaining the original feet but screwed directly into the plinth corner braces). I prefer this to replacing the bottom cover with thicker plywood as some have reported.

A few worthwhile tweaks that I haven't seen on-line include replacing the arm cable and power cord plinth clamping arrangement (a thin leather strip fastened with screws!) with proper nylon p-clips. Also stiffening the arm base to p-clip portion of the arm cable (if it is the original thin Rega tonearm cable?) with heat shrink tubing in a Linn like effort to sink tonearm resonant energy to the plinth (i.e. away from the sub-chassis) is worthwhile. However, this assumes that you are going to replace the original RCA plugs (the removal of which allows one to slip the heat shrink tubing onto the arm cable). Note that this is not necessary with most of the aftermarket tonearm cable which tends toward the thick and stiffer variety.

Another area where these decks suffer is in the sub-chassis itself which is quite clangy. It can be damped to good effect but avoid rubber, Sorbothane or Dynaflex type materials in favour of a thin bituminous sheet (applied to the underside of the sub-chassis plate and cutout to accommodate holes, fasteners etc.). This will stiffen it without smearing and squeezing the life out of the sound.

Resist the urge to damp the underside of the top plate as it kills the tunes (i.e. it is an energy drain for the motor as is Linn's stainless top plate)

At this point a Linn or Rega felt mat (more depending upon proper VTA requirements than sonic preference) and a proper suspension setting/arm cable dressing will result in an even more amazing VFM record spinner.

Have fun,

Craig

Interesting. What SACD player and top flight CDP are currently outperforming vinyl?

Alex

Thanks for all the replies

Dear Alex,

It is just my opinion on the current state of the quality of the various formats available out there in hifi land.

I use the SONY SCD 777 es.

I would have preferred the SCD 1 but it is more expensive and as i cant go Balanced i felt the expense was not worth it.

imho the Orelle and XTC, same designer and manufacturer produce the best cd players available.
Friends have these, and i have a modified Orelle cd 100. The sound quality is fabulous.
The designer is also a consultant for various
hifi manufacturers and if you knew some of the companies he has been commissioned to design for a few hairs might curl. Unfortunately the information is priviledged and so i wont divulge.

The designer is well known in the hifi community for his elegant and simple solutions .

Vinyl as a format is inherently flawed, and even though i was manically rabied against digital i no longer am.

Most recordings today are dealt with digitally and so if put onto vinyl have still had digital
processing somewhere in the chain.

I prefer SACD to both CD and VINYL.
But you cant beat buying a minter vinyl for a couple of quid to add to ones collection especially as a lot of vinyl will never be put out onto the newer formats.

Please enjoy the source and the software regardless of what it is. In other words it is the music and not the medium that is important.

Enjoy
regards david

Thanks for that.

quote:

---

Please enjoy the source and the software regardless of what it is. In other words it is the music and not the medium that is important.

---

How true. The trouble is it took a CDS2 to stop me from thinking 'shit, I wish this was on vinyl' every time I span a CD.

Now I don't care and do just enjoy the music - I usually reach for the music I want to listen to without thinking about the format. And you're, right about vinyl being digitally messed with these days. So many of my classical discs trumpet the digiword as if its something to be proud of.

How much is the SONY SCD 777 es? At what price point do you think a CDS2/Medium LP12 owner could enjoy SACD for the music and forget the source?

Regards,

Alex

ALEX S:

My turntables have been: Systemdek IIX/900 with RB300; Michell Gyrodek QC with RB300/Ortofon MC25FL( fantastic value for money MC cartridge). Changed the arm for an SMEV, then changed the turntable for a Michell Orbe. Changed the cartridge for an Ortofon Rohmann, then replaced this with a Lyra Helikon. Currently using Orbe/SMEV/Lyra Helikon into Prefix/Hi-Cap/52/Scap/135s/Proac Response 3.5s/ One of the best sounds I`ve ever heard off vinyl. I have no plans to ever get an LP12!

Started with Systemdek/RB300/AT110E. Changed turntable for Michell Gyrodek QC. Then changed cartridge for Ortofon MC25FL ( fantastic value for money). Then changed arm for an SMEV, then changed turntable for Michell Orbe. Then changed cartridge for Ortofon Rohmann. Then changed cartridge for Lyra Helikon.

Currently using Michell Orbe/SMEV/Lyra Helikon/Prefix/Hi-Cap/52/Scap/135/Pro-Ac Response 3.5. Have heard a top spec LP12 in similar system. Comment: I have no plans on ever getting an LP12!

Not that exciting I'm afraid.

All began in 1964 with a Seabreeze phonogram that my late father gave me for my 7th birthday (still have the manual and fondly remember my father patiently going over it with me).
Upgraded to Pioneer PL12D/Shure M95ED in 1975 (already had half a dozen new unused LPs in anticipation including DSOTM and COTC).
Sold the Pioneer to a school mate and bought a Dual 506/Dual-Ortofon thingy round about 1979-80.
Flogged the Dual to a friend and went Thorens TD166 Mk II/Nagaoka MP11 Boron in 1984 (bought used in virtually unused condition for $150 - tweaked the snot out of it and liked it even more - still have this table collecting dust).
Next came Linn LP12/Basik LV-X/Grace F9E, on long-term loan from a dearly departed friend for rest of the 1980's (loved the table/cart - didn't trust the arm).
Back to Thorens TD166 (now with the Grace) for a short-term stint until landing an Axis/Basik Plus/K9 in 1993 (still regret not going for a new Sondek).
Picked up a used Planar 2/RB250/Ortofon VMS 20 for spare room system in 1996 (put Mike Sae's Elys on it last week and think it the best VFM deck on the planet).

Future plans include either new P9 or old Sondek. Two different worlds, I admit, but the IBL's may not like the P9's bum (hope to audition it this spring, assuming the dealer can be persuaded to bother getting one in).

Craig

That makes you 2 years older than me. Good. You'd better go and stroke your Brubeck.

Alex

According to your profile you haven't been born yet.

I will send a note to my solicitor to ensure that your future parental units receive notification that the Brubeck will be held in trust for you upon my passing.

That way I will rest peacefully for eternity knowing that you will eventually get what music is all about.

Cheers,

Craig

Alex S--

I currently do use a LP12 with all the Naim bits including Prefix (and a Troika).

However, I owned a Roksan Xerxes X for about a year and a half, with the maxed out power supplies. Arms were a Rega RB300 and RB900 followed by the Aro I own today. In between the LP12 I swapped for the Roxy I borrowed a P9 for a couple months. Cartridges ranged from the Linn K9 to AT OC9 to BPS to Goldring Excel (quite good, btw) and the Troika. The X is a great sounding turntable, offering superior control and grip in the bass compared to the LP12. It also throws a larger soundstage and images better than a LP12 or P9, and times extremely well. Unfortunately it just was not as emotionally engaging, for me, as the LP12. I think the reason for this is that I had active SBLs, which have no boom or fat in the bass (if installed correctly), and the greater control of the Xerxes sounded overdamped and not as flowing as I think it should. If your electronics and/or speakers tend to be a bit on the warm side it is a killer table.

The P9 sounded to me like the Xerxes X on a smaller scale. It also sounded somewhat metronomic to me; others here disagree. it is (or was) a killer value; I don't think there is a table anywhere near it's price that is anywhere near as good.

Cheers,

Bob

Mission 775S/774/(my)Grace F9E (picked up used in the early 90's - bounced about between it and the Axis, sold it off a few years ago, kept the Grace).
Systemdek IIX/Profile II Mk II/various cartridges
(recently aquired two of these almost by accident, long story).

I realise that my turntable history appears as a never ending series of lateral moves, but I honestly do enjoy playing about with and tweaking this level of turntable. It has always amazed me how good some of them can sound for so little money relative to what one must 'invest' in a top flight TT or CDP.

It brings me great pleasure to reap sonic gains by merely fiddling about with these devices. I have heard the Systemdek fronting Kans, Saras, and even Isobariks and sounding very much like an early LP12 (not as good mind you, but very enjoyable all the same).

I do, however, look forward to the day that I finally settle on one turntable that does everything that I like. Here's hoping.

Craig
PS. I did an inventory check last night and there are currently five of the things lying about the place! I guess that is is high time for a close out sale.