Are we going to have an Election discussion?

Earwicker - I wish you had said it like that in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
...I'm voting Lib Dem as what would be ideal for me is if they hold the balance of power!

That doesn't sound like a very good balance though does it - the left and the loony left!

As for the daft university courses, there's actually a sad/serious side to it and that is that these poor buggers come out with their worthless degrees and also with a great big debt to pay back!

Matt.

That's quite true as well as those with genuine 'Older Top Quality Paperwork' I feel can be compared favourably to the Spanish Queer, who made it obvious he detested being tarred with the same brush as Mr King, and his like, on every Media occassion, innit.

Fritz Von Bugger them all

quote:

Originally posted by Matt F:
That doesn't sound like a very good balance though does it - the left and the loony left!

The Left being whom?

Rasher Bsc paperclip collecting dist.

TIME TO COOL OFF GUYS

Keep the blood pressure in check, it's still a bloody good country to live in (well it is where I live).

I think Tony Blair will be warmly thought of when he finally steps down. It seems to be in our nature to dislike politicians. Look at Churchill, he soon got the heave ho in the first election after the war. I know he got back in but that's another story.

Andy with a postal vote - name your price I'm open to offers - and I went to a 'new' university and did a poncey history degree

quote:

Originally posted by AndyFelin:

I think Tony Blair will be warmly thought of when he finally steps down.

Oh? What for? Raising taxes by stealth or allowing an unelected, unaccountable European Court jurisdiction over our own??

Hmm. Going to have to think about that one, mate.

He is a destructive, jumped up twat. And he is very naive.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
The Left being whom?

The reds, the socialists - Labour - our current government - Gordon Brown, Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner etc. The lot that believe in the redistribution of wealth, in taxing the better off more heavily, in tax borrow and spend politics.

They are the left, my friend - yes maybe centre left but still left and you need the right to balance it out and to give people real choice.

Matt.

Another 5 year term for our Tone!

DS

quote:

Originally posted by David Slater:
Another 5 year term for our Tone!

DS

Why? Is he going to prison?

He should do.

quote:

Originally posted by AndyFelin:
TIME TO COOL OFF GUYS
I think Tony Blair will be warmly thought of when he finally steps down.

Maybe not when the jewel in his crown turns out to be a fake. Reuters news

GB might not be such an appealing candidate if UK plc goes belly up.

I'm feeling delighted about waking up to another 5 years of Labour Government! It seems to me that Blair has made some mistakes (immigration, a need for more return to basics and better discipline in schools etc), but he's done far more good than bad for the vast majority (and that's why he's back in).

The reality is that the NHS (in our experience) is far, far better than it was (or would have been) under the Conservatives. My Mother was recently admitted into hospital in Suffolk (with NO DELAY)for an op and well looked after for a week, my wife's ante-natal care (NHS) Surrey was superb, and I do mean superb. Our newborn had a couple of blood tests which showed a minor hormone abnormality which hopefully should settle down of it's own accord but she's getting regular tests and consultations with a Consultant with NO DELAY in seeing him. It couldn't be better if we went private. My Sister in Law recently had a baby at the Portland in London and seemingly received worse maternity care in many respects than we did on the NHS.

The better provision of childcare, restoration of the average earnings link for pensioners, lower hospital waiting times, better paternity and maternity benefits, the minimum wage and some redistribution of wealth towards the less well-off seem to me a good thing. It's important to remember that Thatcher delivered a massive redistribution of wealth to the rich when she slashed higher rate tax levels, and then created an economic climate which saw massive rises in pay for the top 10%. I well remember the CEO of BA getting a 119% pay rise when the staff got 3%. Meanwhile the NHS fell apart because let's face it your average Conservative voter didn't ever plan to use it!

I was at University when she abolished grants (which enabled peasants like me to be the first member of my family in history to go to University). The removal of Student grants made no difference to wealthy parents who weren't eligible anyway but it made a heck of a difference to kids from low income families like mine. Lets also remember the Poll tax which meant that people in big houses paid the same as people in small ones - interesting concept don't you think? Was there anything that woman ever did that helped the poor or disadvantaged (apart from allowing them to buy their own council house?)

Under Blair, the rich are still getting richer, just at a slower rate. Personally I wish Labour would just bung in a higher tax rate on high earners and be done with it. If you look at the house prices around the South East you can see the market is driven by too many people with too much money buying second and third homes so tax em more I say! Key workers already can't afford to live in many areas because the income differentials are too high.

I think many people (myself included) still see the Conservatives as the party of greed and selfishness. I like to think that as a society we're getting a bit more compassionate and selfless than we were under the Conservatives. Last night, I think I was proved right in my faith.

Jonathan

It wouldn't suprise me in the least that those UK members of this Cell, who actually voted yesterday, will be no worse off financially in the near future by any wild new policies regarding tax etc, thank you very much, innit.



Fritz Von Don't rock boat lads money's rollin in innit

N.B. I see Barking got a hefty increase in its BNP following, well I'll be Griffined (A London insider joke that one)

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Gorse:
...Meanwhile the NHS fell apart because let's face it your average Conservative voter didn't ever plan to use it!

What absolute nonsense.

Jonathan, could it be that you're just a little prejudiced against those who choose to vote Conservative?

Jonathan,

You obviously haven't had to use a hospital in my area.

You obviously don't have children in University right now or are facing a much bigger hit on the cost of education under Labour, and the fact that the higher education system is looking pretty unstable, from the inside at least, might have something to do with trying to push up university intake, media studies, really useful degree that!

The main reason the UK econmony is out performing the rest of Europe is because the UK did in the eighties what the rest of Europe is going to have to do sooner or later, the freedom and flexibility in the UK workforce has nothing to do with the current government, in fact they are working away from an attractive economic enviroment for business, only saving grace it is still one hell of a lot more attractive then the rest Europe (though with addition of the 10 new states to the EU a year ago I think there is going to be ever increasing pressure on UK manufacturing). I also don't think that a whole host of 20 or 30 somethings who have bugger all chance of houseowner ship think all is just and fair, many will probably start looking at emigrating when kids etc arrive, the 1970's brain drain once again? albeit for different reasons.

But I happy to concede that the alternatives where not especially appealing.

Matthew

I am a little perplexed at all this antipathy towards improving the education level of the general population.

There is a constant trend towards alternatives to unskilled, manual manufacturing. The need to work smarter to be able to compete with low-wage economies means we need as much education as can be crammed into every last skull.

Don't forget that any education, however lowly you consider the objective, is improving the potential for employment and self-empopyment. Let's make it amongst a greater proportion of the British/European population. The Chinese can take care of themselves.

Education is also about social awareness, blending in with society as a whole and improving oneself over a whole range of social skills. It also teaches self discipline, the ability to concentrate, analyse, organise, prioritise and study. And how to communicate above the usual grunts, mumbles and tired parochial clichés about the local FC. It's about building self-confidence and practicing networking for the future.

The buggers have to be educated some time. It might as well be when they are young and absorbent rather than elderly and too stiff for comfortable parallel processing.

What is wrong about working part-time to make enough to live on while studying? It focusses the mind wonderfully on the real connection between work and income. Though one would wish for a decent minimum wage to minimise the hours worked to give them more time to study, rather than simply to get drunk on their grants in the pubs.

Would you rather the young hung about town centres wearing mohican hairstyles and sniffing glue between visits to the dole office?

Nime

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Gorse:
Lets also remember the Poll tax which meant that people in big houses paid the same as people in small ones - interesting concept don't you think?
Jonathan

I think the concept should be that you pay for the services you use (unless you are genuinely unable to). The idea that a single person in a big house should pay more to have his bin collected than a family with 3 kids in a smaller house is what I find ridiculous - the family place more strain on council services so they should pay more.

What other essential things you buy - bread, milk, beer etc are based on the size of your house or your income? I'll tell you - nothing.

As for the NHS - it may have got marginally better but nowhere near as much as it should have done with the extra millions pumped in. And it's interesting to note how there is now a fair old wait to for your second consultation to get onto the 6 month waiting list i.e. there's a waiting list for the waiting list but you'll only be on the official waiting list for 6 months so Labour can claim targets are being met. Christ, one of Plymouth Hospital's senior consultants stood as an independant against Labour as he was appalled at how he has to now treat cases based not on clinical need but on meeting Labours promised targets.

Finally, I can't believe I'm still hearing this tax the rich more nonsense. Haven't you grasped that these people contribute a huge amount in taxes already and yet place little strain on public services. You squeeze them too hard and they'll bugger off. You may not like them but you should appreciate that the country would be screwed without them.

Matt.

Purely anecdotal, but an aquaintence offered a tax-free investment (in wind turbines) to a very wealthy chap over the telephone.

The immediate (and perhaps remarkable) response was that as he didn't pay any tax he had no real use for a tax-free investment. He thanked my colleague politely for the offer and hung up.

This perhaps confirms that it is only the middle classes who pay taxes.

Nime

Talking of Wind Turbines, Herr Parry's been bloody quiet of late, s'luvvly innit.



Fritz Von Probably being humble & new and all that ?

I'd love to know how to pay no tax - I mean I can reduce NI by paying myself dividends and it it would theoretically be possible (but not considered wise anymore) for me to avoid 40% tax by paying a non working relative £30K a year in dividends (whish they then give back to me) but I'd still be paying tax on most of my profits, just at a lower rate.

Matt.

Give it all to charity like our Mick, there's loads of lodges out there just waiting for your dosh to donate it further, innit.


Fritz Von Don't tell anybody though

Hello Fritz

Whilst you spent 3 hours in the dole office today, I spent 2 hours drinking champagne on the side of the Thames with colleagues celebrating a few more forthcoming years of pseudo Thatcherism under Tony.

Overall not too bad a result.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:

Whilst you spent 3 hours in the dole office today, I spent 2 hours drinking champagne on the side of the Thames with colleagues celebrating a few more forthcoming years of pseudo Thatcherism under Tony.

Regards

Mick

That's actually a very satisfactory way of looking at it - I'm just personally having trouble relating the New Labour tax rises and persecution of IT freelancers to Thatcherism.

Anyway - I've a plan for Herr Brown if he has more NI rises around the corner - as he puts NI up I will reduce my salary to compensate

Matt.

4 hours actually John, if you include the hours wait in the rain before getting squeezed through the doors Tokyo subway style, innit.


Fritz Von The wonderful Untranslatable German phrase comes to mind to describe your comments old bean, namely; Schadenfreude²