Are we going to have an Election discussion?

He's got them smalls just right now, so he has, innit.


Fritz Von Impressed Our Mick you're gonna go far. P,S, Wot were you doing in Southend then ?

Still on the subject of Demockery, remember the recent British Squaddie case that was quashed because he was a TA man and essentially took his pics etc in his private time (no pun intended) and was therefore not culpabale under Court Marshal Law ? Who remembers (2 days ago, US Private England being charged & may face up to 11 years in prison) as she's a regular soldier? Who remembers 2 days ago 'Dubya' himself OK'ing a demotion of a Brig:General to Colonel (another Mickey Mouse Reservist Prison Governess) who'll basically get less pension ? Who remembers UK Citizens being banged up for years then released, never being charged or compensated (mentally wrecked though) released, after being left at the hands of these Mickey Mouse reservist idiots ? Well I do, for one, How about You ?


Fritz Von And Pleease don't bullshit about how great reservists etc are, it's true 5% of them are, the rest are Percy Sugden Community Support Wallys, not worth the ego's and stupidity they were born with², and a Danger to all and sunrie, not to mention themselves, innit

End Of Rant: Poxy Hypocracy²

7v,

I don't mind how people vote, it's up to them. My point is that Blair got in because for the average Joe, life is probably better than it would be under the Conservatives for all the reasons I stated. The fact is that last time the Conservatives were in power they achieved a greater redistribution of wealth from poor to rich than had been achieved by any previous Government and I found that morally offensive (despite being a Public School and University Educated higher rate taxpayer). There are aspects of Conservatism I like and nobody is advocating a return to 90% tax rates, however even under Blair the disparity between richest and poorest continues to grow and I don't think that makes for a healthy society. If higher taxation is the only way to slow that widening disparity then so be it.

I live in an area where there is an alarming disparity between those who live in St George's Hill Weybridge or Ascot and those in Slough or Addlestone. If we're not very careful the social unrest will boil over and that won't improve anybody's quality of life.

Matthew T - I can't comment on your local hospitals of course, and I too worry that the billions poured into the NHS should have resulted in an even better performance, but a 6 month waiting list is still better than the 2 and 3 year waiting lists I recall under Thatcher.

Regarding higher education, I agree there are far too many people doing pointless degrees, but I am a great believer that everyone should enjoy the benefits of means tested University grants. Lets face it, if you're a bright kid from a rich background the issue of whether or not to go to University is never made on the basis of funding it, whereas for a bright kid from a poor family there is a risk that they will feel an obligation to go and get a job rather than incur fees and loans and that can't be right?

Shouldn't education be provided based upon merit?

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Gorse:
Shouldn't education be provided based upon merit?

Yes it should.

A good start would be to bring back Grammar schools.

Regards
Steve M

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:
A good start would be to bring back Grammar schools.

Regards
Steve M

It would be a new re-arrival if ANYONE in authority recogised the virtues of basic education.

I think the UK has a long way to go to get back to where it used to be.

EW

Matt F said "What other essential things you buy - bread, milk, beer etc are based on the size of your house or your income? I'll tell you - nothing."

Healthcare, education, motorways, defense, etc.

"Finally, I can't believe I'm still hearing this tax the rich more nonsense. Haven't you grasped that these people contribute a huge amount in taxes already and yet place little strain on public services"

Are you suggessting we tax the poor?

"As for the NHS - it may have got marginally better but nowhere near as much as it should have done with the extra millions pumped in."

The solution is of course to remove millions of £s invested and instead spend if on tax cuts for computer programmers.

"I'd love to know how to pay no tax"

Move to Dubai.

Assuming you stay in the UK though, basically you can't as you are not nearly rich enough to pay no tax.

"I'm just personally having trouble relating the New Labour tax rises and persecution of IT freelancers to Thatcherism"

Before IR35 90% of IT Contractors liked nothing better than to tell my permanent staff how they were earning 4 times as much, pay virtually no tax and have zero risk.

Post IR35 90% of IT Contractors are suddenly entrepenurial risk takers bravely putting their whole futures on the line to earn £60 an hour writing VB.

Thatcherism was actually about controlling inflation by the indirect mechansim of controlling money supply -- an idea that only ever really worked in Chile where they managed to keep unemployment down by killing everyone.

New Labour have not been Thatcherites although they have managed to conttrol inflation significantly better than Conservative governemts whilst at the same time making the massive capital investements in healthcare and eduction to rectify the yearts of neglect and under investement under Thatcher and Major.

I will conceded that the likes of you and me have had had to pay significantly more tax to pay for the sort of poor people who put a "strain" on our public services by, erm, using them.

Matthew

quote:

Lets face it, if you're a bright kid from a rich background the issue of whether or not to go to University is never made on the basis of funding it,

This isn't strictly true if, for whatever reason, Bright Rich Kid's parents refuse to fund his higher education or his maintenance.

It does happen, and if grants are to be means tested then rich parents should be obliged to cough up.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I spent 2 hours drinking champagne on the side of the Thames with colleagues celebrating a few more forthcoming years of pseudo Thatcherism under Tony.

Is five more years of that ineffectual, self-congratulatory, grinning wank-pellet really something to celebrate? Apart from that, it sounds like you had a nice afternoon, however!

EW

quote:

Are you suggessting we tax the poor?

Matthew, you do tax the poor, your preferred party more than most.

Paul

Paul -- I agree we should tax the poor less.

Matthew

Just which erection is now being chatted over here ?


Fritz Von When the pope was being chosen was the grey smoke in the middle really the Da Vinci Codex going up in dust ? Up the Hammers

quote:

I agree we should tax the poor less.

Good.

But then where would the money come from to pay all the middle class public sector paper pushers on well above average salaries?

Paul

7v - re: bringing back Grammar Schools I completely agree and have never understood why Labour object to giving bright but poor kids the nearest thing to a Public School education for free.

Frankly I think we need the most academic 30-40% going to Grammar Schools and the reminader being sent to specialist colleges. The latter would teach good basic English, maths etc and then good skills like electrics, engineering, plumbing, car maintenance, horticulture etc so that these people actually come out with education that will help them develop a worthwhile career. Better to be 'scraping by' on £70k as a plumber surely or earning £30k as a car mechanic/lorry driver/welder than to be earning £7k on a till in Sainsbury's because the education system hasn't trained you for anything at all.

Jonathan

A Yankee 'journo' yesterday referred to Blair as a Europeanist, his London counterpart straight off the cuff, amusingly replied, "No, he's a Violinist", well I thought it was good anyway !

Fritz Von Yankeeisms Making for more betterer English, innit


Mind you when the large British concerns raking off ☺ £ Billions for outside UK losses from the exchequer finally get hauled in, there should be plenty more to go around, innit our Mick ?

And I suppose similarly to the Postal Voting Fiasco (that may or may not be forgotten) The 'Yes Ministerial' permanent Secretary's & Senior Civil Serviles never change, EVER EVER EVER, it's enough to make one's face turn Scarlet, innit PURE DEMOCRACY BEING THE REAL POWER FOLK AMONGST THE FOLK :

In the early 80's Thatcher's Govenment changed the voting rules for British Ex Pats, from what was then (5 years I believe ?) to the present rule of up to 20 years since one was last registered as a voter in the UK. I think her logic at the time was that the 1 million or so ex-pats around the world were more than likely to be Tory woters, due to their business ethos ?
These rules don't apply to UK based people or Military folk, who come under standard British rules as tax payers I believe ? I personally last voted in a UK GE in the last election but one, and now being over the 20 year stay am no longer eligible to vote. I'm not sure what would happen if I returned to UK for say 18 months & worked with our Mick learning the ropes (registered whils't there) then returned here again permanently, wether I'd have another 20 years grace or not ? but it's worth questioning I fink under the heading Democracy ? If I wish to vote in a German GE I must take up Citizenship here and renounce my UK passport which I'm considering doing for future employment reasons anyway.
As we all know British papers are definately not Democratic (which are?) as institutions by any streatch of the imagination, but are effectively good battle grounds for 'entertainment/Unsubstanciated Gossip etc' News, and open 'debate ?', and after the recent election I would be very interested to know the answers to the following questions, which I doubt very much would ever be found in one of the afore-mentioned rags ? but it's worth a try at least.
Given that the UK (since Jan 2005) now has its very first official 'Freedom Of Information Act', I'd be very pleased to know how many people in the UK were actually eligible to vote ? ie, All overseas voters + everybody on the electoral rolls around the country (overseas voters like myself previously doing so by proxy (in my case my Mother) innit), as I'm sure these figures must be almost accurate to a tee ? Those who are not allowed to vote for various reasons like being sectioned under the Mental Health Act, or being in prison, or overseas too long, or best still a Senior Member of the Royal family. These initial figures must be fairly (or unfairly ?) constant shouldn't they ? so when we learn later (After the election) excatly how many people have cast their votes, it shouldn't be too difficult a mathematical (straight talk problem & answer) to solve I would imagine ? Given that all three major parties agreed that it would be in the Country's Democratic interests as a whole for more people to be involved in the election by the use of postal voting as one means for example, it really would be nice to know though wunnit ?


Fritz Von Obviously some get lost, stolen. destroyed, etc, etc by design or accident, but the pre-election eligibility of voters numbers should be possible surely to be calculated almost to a man, just like the taxman does every year, innit.

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:

This was taken with a portable tardis in Swindon, though there again like most mobile phones, I suppose all tardi are portable, innit ?

So how many voted then ?

Must have been at least 6 million ?

I think the turnout was around 60% - I do feel that in order to have any right to complain about politicians of any description you have to at least made the effort to vote. Sadly that means 40% of the population believe in moaning about who they get in Government when they haven't got off their backside to do anything about it. Our constituency is Conservative and probably will remain so for a thousand years so my voting anything other than Conservative was essentially a waste of time, but at least it legitimises my right to complain!

It will be interesting who replaces Howard. Can't imagine why the Labour party are seemingly baying for Blair's head when his potential successor has all the charisma of a dead stoat! I would have thought it's because Blair has such charisma and appeals to centre and the middle classes that he got in a third time.

Jonathan

Hello Out there 60 or 40 % of What precisely, How about some figures please Sir/Madam ?


It took me years to write, will you take a look ?

Interesting discussion; I just hope you all appreciate that, regardless of your feelings about Blair, et. al. your gov't is much preferable to the alarming situation here, which increasingly feels like something like post-Weimar Republic Germany and an emerging Evangelical Taliban state, with gays and non-Republicans as the new Jews.

Exiled in my own country,
Bruce

So you don't know how mnay people vote in WA either mate ?

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
So you don't know how many people vote in WA either mate ?

Actually, 2.9 million.

Just this last week a conservative minister (priest) of an evangelical church strong-armed Microsoft (normally a progressive corporation) to withdraw support for a gay civil-rights bill in the state Legislature, effectively killing it. Gay people can actually be fired from a job or denied housing here just for being gay. How very 19th Century! What Christian tolerance!

What d'yer expect from a load of dissenfranchised Jocks mate, even the Abbo's have gone on permanent Walkabout. If yer want to educate WA, start by closing the pubs on time.


Fritz Von You know it makes sense

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
What d'yer expect from a load of dissenfranchised Jocks mate, even the Abbo's have gone on permanent Walkabout. If yer want to educate WA, start by closing the pubs on time.


Fritz Von You know it makes sense

First we need some decent beer, Fritz old sun!