Christ, I think I like Classical!

Will do.

I started listening to classical on the radio and think that's a good way to get a range of music cheaply. Certainly you fall in love with certain pieces then go and buy them. Coming from rock and roll I liked the agressive and dynamic pieces and Bartok was quite exciting. only last year I found on vinyl his String Quartest by Takacs Qt. wonderful and strange. Also, try out the Beethoven late quartets, and I hear some of his late piano pieces they thought he was going mad. He was just composing for the future.

Late night listening to classical on the radio is when you get the serious programing and can focus on the music. It is a really huge area to comprehend. and don't write off Opera. There are many wonderful moments in it too but go see one rather than starting off with it canned. It then makes sense. todd A will be an obsessive opera junkie in the near future I'm sure.

Take it easy and enjoy the ride.

glenn

Life is analogue

Ludwig,

nice to see that you like classcical not influenced by others which raise classical music above all and make it a synonym for a good music. I know a lot of people who don't like classical at all and a lot of people who only listen to classical music. The director of Hi-Fi magazine for which I write equipment rewievs own VPI Aries/JMW Memorial/Benz/Benz, Cary pre/monoblocks and Alon Circe with ext. cross. and he only listen to classical music, but after many years I still really cannot understand that.
I like classical as many people are, but I have only 7-8 % classical cd's of my entire cd collection. I am strongly against thinking that classical is automaticaly something good and worth more in order to... King Crimson for example. Be aware of people who think like that and accept only what you like, no matter is it sweety Mozart or dark Schumann. There are many rock music which is crap, same is with classical, for me the classical crap is Smetana, many Chopin works which are writen especialy at order for high society and even some Mozart works.
Let me suggest you some good cds...
First of all take a listen to Yuval Yaron on Naim cd. That is truly exceptional violinist and music material is really fantastic.
Get Mussorgsky - Pictures At An Exhibition on Living Stereo cd and you will see what is fantastic recording and fantastic music work. See also other composers at LS.
Get Brahms Symphonies 1,2,3 and 4 on Mercury Living Presence. Mercury are also great recordings.

Enjoy,

Ozren

Ludwig will survive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozren Herold:
he only listen to classical music, but after many years I still really cannot understand that. Be aware of people who think like that and accept only what you like, no matter is it sweety Mozart or dark Schumann.

---

So who is patronizing whom here? To go by his posts here I think Ludwig will be able to handle the pressure that goes with owning a handful of clasical music.

quote:

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There are many rock music which is crap, same is with classical, for me the classical crap is Smetana, many Chopin works which are writen especialy at order for high society and even some Mozart works.

---

Gee I didn't know that li'l bit of communist-era propaganda still was in circulation. For the record, if Chopin had wanted to get rich pleasing the rich, he'd written much much more, rather than worry and sweat over each piece he wrote. If there ever was one musician who loathed any form of commercialism it's Chopin - he rarely ever performed in public.

Herman

Herman,

You are sooo pushy man.

quote:

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Gee I didn't know that li'l bit of communist-era propaganda still was in circulation.

---

Gee, for your information I was been in war against communism regime some time ago and I was been wounded (not in the head, like you will maybe think, he). I was also lost some of my friends in the fight. So you see that I am not familiar with it.
Herm, believe me, you don't know nothing about communism and all the things what communism brings. You better shut up about that theme and cure your nonafirmation, boring life and complexes elsewhere, cos' you may became stupid.

quote:

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For the record, if Chopin had wanted to get rich pleasing the rich, he'd written much much more, rather than worry and sweat over each piece he wrote. If there ever was one musician who loathed any form of commercialism it's Chopin

---

It's gotta be some secret connection between you and Chopin . Your Chopin defense is very subjective and sounds like hear say. Ofcourse that Chopin and Mozart and who knows who else was making very often what we called today a commercial music, yes they are, but commercial for their time. I KNOW, because I was reading the books, that Chopin was making pieces for lords, grofs and well postitioned goverment officers.

Herm, silence is mother of wisdom.

Ozren

wisdom's mother

Hi Ozren,

I'm going to show you what a nice guy I am, and respond to your post assuming your rude tone is caused by the fact that English isn’t your first language.

It may be just a matter of my clear "nonaformation" but it's a little rich to accuse somebody of being pushy when the short version of your advice to Ludwig reads kind of like: don’t listen to the other guys, listen to me - too much classical music can fry your brain; just buy the same discs as I have.

It's true I don’t know much about communism. All I alluded to was the old habit in communist regimes to tell people what to enjoy and what not to enjoy with specious arguments about the artist being either "of the people" (good) or "bourgeois" or "pandering to the aristocracy" (bad).

I'm intrigued by the fact that you have read books about Chopin while A) he's clearly not to your taste and B) classical music can fry your brain. However the following is why I take issue with your (obviously non-subjective) argument that Chopin is crap because he "was making pieces for lords etc."

In the first place music made to order for lords etc doesn’t necessarily have to be crap. Some of these lords had excellent taste. Think of J.S. Bach or Joseph Haydn. Chopin, however, was different, living in a different era. His economy consisted of teaching the piano (a lot); selling his compositions to publishers, the very very rare concert, and, indeed, gifts from friends in high places.

Virtually all artists at the time had friends in high places; after all those were the people who formed the core of their audience. The difference between Chopin and lesser composers is that Chopin didn’t write to order. No one could have said "Fred, write me a Scherzo" because the form was completely novel. He wrote what his creative demons urged him to write and if that took a long time, too bad. If he dedicated a piece to a friend, and the friend gave him a gift in return, that doesn't mean he wrote to order.

That's a big difference. Chopin was calling the shots, rather than his audience. For a long time he was financially supported by his friend / lover George Sand, because he just wasn't making that much. Reason why is he wasn't churning out easy-listening stuff for rich folks. He could have, but he didn't. Others did, however, and that's the difference between an artist writing for the market, and an artist who like any other person needs to have lunch.

Ozren, I'm fine with you taking another view of Chopin, and preferring the funny fiddle stuff on the Naim record you recommend. It's a matter of taste. I do want to say however that the music room, and especially the classical mini-part of the music room has always been a place were people, no matter what their native language is, rarely have felt the need for calling each other stupid, or dismissed different opinions by talking about people's "boring life, complexes elsewhere" etc. After all we're not talking about Mana or something.

Herman

absolutely

Wow, Ozren, your opinions are quite intriguing, if perhaps poorly informed.

Can you please explain to all of us how Mozart's last two symphonies, or, perhaps, his string quartets dedicated to Haydn are "commercial.” A number of Mozart’s greatest works were not written for commission, so I’m eagerly awaiting your explanation as to how such compositions are commercial.

Likewise, can you please explain how Chopin’s scherzos and ballades are music written for “lords?” Perhaps you can also explain the near universal revulsion at his B flat minor sonata, with even such a revolutionary figure as Schumann questioning it’s structure and purpose if he wrote for a fickle public. As for “lords,” perhaps you can point out which royal figures supported Chopin. Last I read he catered more to the dastardly bourgeoisie than royalty.

Also, please explain how Smetana is crap. I can only assume that you made such a statement after listening to a wide variety of his music and not just Ma Vlast. I’d be particularly interested in hearing why his piano trio is crap.

Of course, you recommendation of Dorati’s Brahms reveals the extent of your knowledge of classical music. He was a very good conductor, but not in Brahms. It is nice to see you writing in defense of those great old stereo recordings, even though many of them really don’t sound that good.



"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Ozren,

Thanks for your comments. I'll take them into account.

Right now the only thing I know is that I like Schubert, not because somebody said I should, but because his music makes me smile. We should all judge music using the same criteria we use to choose hifi gear: what makes us happier.

More later...

Ludwig,

you are welcome. I am happy about your classical discoveries.

Herman and Todd !

I don't want to be taken wrong.
As english is not my first or even second language and because this explanation need some carefuly chosen terms and words, I am not able to satisfy your minds at this moment.
But I will only tell you this...
Today people are very much influented by propaganda, no mater what type is it.
For example, curently I have at home Kef Reference 203 speakers, Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamplifier and Sonic Frontiers Power 1 power amplifier for magazine rewiev. This pre/power combo is not so new at the market but it looks like it is.
But what I want to say is that both speakers and electronics I mention is crap. The point is that I won't write totaly negative rewiev about them because of several reasons. If everyone will write what he hear, there will be significantly less audio companies in the world. Same is with classical composers (recordings) and MANY people think that all of them are good.
Well, they are not.
If you are realstic and objective persons, you could easily connect these two worlds.

Ozren

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozren Herold:
If you are realstic and objective persons, you could easily connect these two worlds.

---

Hey, you can have your opinions, but you should be able to back them up with something more substantial than "I think it is crap." I don't recall ever saying or writing that all classical composers are good – nor have I seen anyone write such things – but nor have I written the absurdities you wrote. If you can substantiate your opinions with facts and insightful analyses, that's one thing, but to blithely dismiss hundreds of years of experience with “it’s crap” is, quite frankly, silly.



"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

This thread has pretty much spun off topic, but perhaps Ludwig has gotten the info he was eager for, and all we can do now is wait for awhile to hear what his findings are - which I'm truly curious about.

In the meantime, I'd be happy to address Ozren's staggering claims.

Ozren, as it happens I contribute a book review to one of Holland's national gen. interest weeklies, every month, usually 2000 words. That's no big deal. However, it puts me in the position to observe that many people who do this kind of work get a weird inverted idea of their importance. Their name gets printed! Or if not, at least they get free books / cd's / socks! And I say their ideas about their importance gets inverted in that they're not saying what they think, but write instead what they think they should write. It’s what everybody else writes, and that way they get to keep their little job. I.e. you're not concerned about the jobs of these KEF or Sonic Frontiers folks. You're holding on to your own job. You just want those freeby socks.

That's why your importance is actually nil. There won’t be "significantly less audio companies in the world" if you say "crap". You won’t get to write the word crap, because the magazine needs the advertizing. Besides no one will notice if you do write the word crap. Audio magazines are like Playboy. People look at the pictures and take the writing for granted.

Back to your blissfully unsubstantiated judgements about classical composers. Sadly your notion that all people think all classical music is great is not true. Look at this forum. Most people don’t even think half of classical music is great. They just don’t give a damn. They have every right to do so. What I take issue with is your way of saying "ladies and gentlemen I know a lot about this, trust me, and you can skip most of this stuff. Chopin, Mozart? Crap. I have a couple of audiophile recordings and that's all you need." Again, you seem to be just saying this because it seems safe and popular to do so.

I hate to say it but there is a kind of tradition in the classical mini-zone of the Music Room here that you leave your testosterone at the door (leaving the Hifi Corner). We're interested in new stuff, old stuff, even cliché stuff. Everybody's welcome. But if you just want to be aggressive you will need more intellectual muscle than you've shown thus far.

Herman

[This message was edited by herm on WEDNESDAY 01 October 2003 at 22:25.]

The First Order

Well, I placed my first order. I expect naming my first born child will be easier. My choices:

Schubert - 8 Symphonies - Bohm/Berlin
Schubert - The Piano Sonatas - Kempff
Beethoven - Sonatas for piano nos 29, 32 - Pollini
Beethoven - String Quartets/Great Fugue - Budapest
Haydn - String Quartets Op76- 1, 2, 3- Kodaly
Haydn - London Symphonies, Vol 2 - Davis/ Concertgebouw
Mozart - Great Piano Concertos - Ashkenazy/London
Mozart - Violin Concertos - Davis/London w/Grumiaux
Bach - Complete Brandenburg Concertos - Pearlman/Boston Baroque
Bach - Goldberg Variations - Perahia

A lot of what was suggested is on a wish list I've filed away. I'll report back in a few months.

(PS- If any of the recordings above scream "oh, that one's awful" to you, please let me know as I still have 1-2 days to edit my order. I had no idea who to choose performing the Mozart selections. Thanks.)

[This message was edited by Ludwig on THURSDAY 02 October 2003 at 02:30.]

Well-chosen, I say (although I don't know all of them).

O.k., well back to real music. Did I tell you about that new Locust album?

Eric

Looks like a pretty good list to me. I don't think any of them are awful. And some are truly outstanding. It's good to see those Schubert boxes on your list.



"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

First order, best order.

I'm actually very excited to receive the order and to try some new things.

One more question- what Schubert string quartet recordings are top-notch? Ah, to entertain you hardcore enthusiasts here is the random collection of classical CD's I own today:

Schubert - String Quartets 12-15 - Julliard School
Schubert - Symphony 5; Beethoven Sympony 6 Op68 - Bohm/Wiener
Mahler - Symphony 1, Lieder something-er-other - Fischer-Dieskau/Kubelik? (No idea what the names mean here)
Vivaldi - Four Seasons - Biobdi
Rachmaninoff - Symphony 2, Vocalise - Zinman/Baltimore, McNair

I cannot remember how I chose any of these. Amazon recommendations, maybe. (In other genres I've found Amazon's music editors' recommendations to be awful.)

What Schubert quartets? That's a whole thread right there. I have yet to hear the Juilliard, though I can't imagine them being bad. I'm partial to the Melos Quartet's second recording of the late quartets on Harmonia Mundi. The Italiano on Philips are also superb.

Of your remaining discs, I am only familiar with the Bohm and Kubelik discs (both of which I own) and find both indispensable. The Bohm disc, in particular, should be in every serious music (not just classical) collection. The Mahler First has some unique and perhaps unusual elements in it, but again, it is superb. (I’m pining for Kubelik’s complete Mahler cycle, but, alas, it is not available in the States.) The Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (Songs of a Wayfarer) is a fine early Mahler song cycle. It’s not his best work, and Dieskau is not really a great Mahlerian, but it makes for a good intro to the work.



"The universe is change, life is opinion." Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Okay, I was just curious if I owned the (embarassing) classical equivalent of Bad Company, Steve Miller, Lynyrd Skynryd, Moody Blues, etc.

Todd,

You are repeting yourself.
The answer on your post you can read in my previous post.

Herman,

Your posts are very good scenarios, did you ever think to make some money of them?
Your view on this theme is very much locked and you looking on it from your own perspective which is again very subjective. I cannot talk with you while you are repetedly force yourself to be above all, including me using your cynism. I think that you are start first with communism and please don't tell me that I am agressive. That is the last thing what I want to be.
Herman, this don't have any sense...
You are writer, right? Writer who maybe living in the clouds, but don't let be yourself an audiofool because of that.

You know what, yesterday illusions are tomorrow smiles and that worth for all.

Ozren
Sorry, gotta go, can't wait to to explore all the bits of my new handheld pc, yepeeee, finally in colour.

Very good Schubert quartet recordings are the Melos one Todd mentioned; for a little more angst and violence the Alban Berg Quartet on EMI; for more deliberation and depth the Italiano on Philips. However if you're happy with the Juilliard, why don't you stick with that one for the mo (with the Juilliards it depends which 'generation' Juilliard you're looking at: after say, 1973 they slowly decline.)

However if you'd like to have one more Schubert string thing, go for the famous String Quintet, which can be had cheap by the Amadeus Quartet with William Pleeth on the second 'cello. (There's a later Amadeus Q recording of this piece with another cellist, but it's not the classic take.)

The Böhm Beethoven 6 is one of the very best recordings of this work. Kubelik is another late great conductor you apparently lucked into. (Todd, have you tried accessing these Audite recordings via JPC.de?)

Herman

Hi Ludwig:

This might an interesting website for you:

[URL=http://www.archambault.ca/store/promotion.asp?subcat=1][/URL]

I have learned lots about classical music listening to this man on the radio...

My order finally shipped, so I should be able to start listening soon...

It's wonderful when you discover a whole new world of music. That's how I felt when I first started to really get into Jazz a few years ago.

There would be other Scriabin that I would start with other than the Poeme of Ecstasy. Scriabin is first and foremost a composer of solo piano works and it is in these that he is at his best. There is a huige difference between the hyper romantic early work and the mystical, inigmatic and tonally ambiguous later work. The Horowitz recording of the 3rd Sonata and selection of early to late preludes would be a good start as would the Askenazy Sonata recording of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 9th Sonatas, or countless others. Anything with Askenazy, Sofronisky (sp.?), Richter, Horowitz with a mixture of earlier and later, large and small, works would be good.

Cheers,
Garth

Quick Update

Well, I've listened to about 50% of my purchases. I like everything I've heard so far, which is good. Schubert remains my favorite, at least until I get into it a bit more.

This might amuse some- I put the Beethoven string quartet in (Op 59, No 3), hoping to relax and possibly fall asleep one evening. Ha!!! Not a chance- it was very lively, unlike the Schubert string quartets I own. I liked it, but not in the context of that particular moment,