Any Wayne Shorter fans out there?

Top banana!

I have a lot of Wayne Shorter recordings and would opt for the older ones in his catalogue - the ones you have chosen. In recent years he has received critical acclaim for recordings such as Footprints. I went to see the Footprints band live and it was one of my biggest concert disappointments. A lot of his audience started disappearing after a couple of tracks. I only managed three before deciding to go home.

I must admit that in both Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers and Miles Davis' bands, I do not like Wayne Shorter's tone of sax playing nearly as much as those who came before him. I find his tone too buzzy compared with Coltrane, and not such a fun buzzyness as Coleman Hawkins, and uncomfortable middle ground for me.

That said I do love his playing on my favourite Miles Davis album 'In a Silent Way', the soprano cuts through the electric instruments beautifully.

It is just personal taste, he was extremely talented, and much sort after by the greatest band leaders of his time.

I did see him in the 80's with his electric band, good, but not amazing.

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I went to see the Footprints band live and it was one of my biggest concert disappointments. A lot of his audience started disappearing after a couple of tracks. I only managed three before deciding to go home.

Wow, surprised to read this, Adrian. What was wrong?

Shorter, yes, I like his Blue Notes very much. Haven't heard the later stuff. I struggle to get Coltrane - it all sounds terribly overblown to me. Blasphemy, I know.

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Originally posted by droodzilla:
Wow, surprised to read this, Adrian. What was wrong?

Shorter, yes, I like his Blue Notes very much. Haven't heard the later stuff. I struggle to get Coltrane - it all sounds terribly overblown to me. Blasphemy, I know.

It was totally tuneless and lacking in anything approaching engagement and connection. At the end of a couple of tracks at the Brighton Dome, literally 30-40 people stood up and off they went. End of next track another large chunk of audience. Unfortunately I took one of the guys who worked for me along as his intro to jazz. Not sure if he was scarred for life or not. Had that experience recently with Dave Holland in the same hall - lots of people going as well. Also happened at Arild Andersen Belleville album concert and I had to agree with those that left but I hung on and it got better.

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Unfortunately I took one of the guys who worked for me along as his intro to jazz. Not sure if he was scarred for life or not.

Ouch! That's a shame.

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Shorter, yes, I like his Blue Notes very much. Haven't heard the later stuff. I struggle to get Coltrane - it all sounds terribly overblown to me. Blasphemy, I know.

In addition to his Blue Note records, I also like his compositions and playing on Miles Davis' albums, in particular Nefertiti and Filles de Kilimanjaro.

The first time that I listened to Coltrane was through his Ballads album and that is the one that I still enjoy the most, although I do like Giant Steps and the Africa Brass sessions as well. A favourite among critics is 'A love Supreme', but that was never really my cup of tea, although I have listened to it many times (trying to understand what's so special about it). Sorry ... that is probably blasphemy as well!

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It was totally tuneless and lacking in anything approaching engagement and connection. At the end of a couple of tracks at the Brighton Dome, literally 30-40 people stood up and off they went. End of next track another large chunk of audience. Unfortunately I took one of the guys who worked for me along as his intro to jazz. Not sure if he was scarred for life or not. Had that experience recently with Dave Holland in the same hall - lots of people going as well. Also happened at Arild Andersen Belleville album concert and I had to agree with those that left but I hung on and it got better.

Any idea how he has ended up that way? I thought that he had Danilo Perez in his band (piano). About a decade ago, I remember listening to this guy's debut album and just gasping at the incredible talent on display. I also understand that John Patitucci is his bassist. How could someone who is so awesome on the six string bass and upright bass sound bad?

I have to agree with you on Dave Holland. I just love his playing on Pat Metheny's Question and Answer album. Arguably one of the best recorded jam sessions in jazz?

Whenever listening to the great jazz masters, rarely do I ever think in terms of who is better or who's best. They all bring something different to the game.

Wayne Shorter . . . I usually don't think of his sax playing when selecting him for a listen. Instead, the first thing that comes to mind is all the great modal, irregular compositions he wrote in the 50's 60's, and the 70's/80's with Weather Report.

The albums already mentioned are excellent. Also, check out "Adams Apple", any of the Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers albums, as well as the Weather Report catalog.


"Unfortunately I took one of the guys who worked for me along as his intro to jazz"

Bad idea . . . . next time just sit him in front of your Naim gear and drop the needle on any of the classic Blue Note albums. IMHO, by far the most accessible jazz with it's blues based-groove oriented music.


Max

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Originally posted by irwan shah:
Any idea how he has ended up that way? I thought that he had Danilo Perez in his band (piano). About a decade ago, I remember listening to this guy's debut album and just gasping at the incredible talent on display. I also understand that John Patitucci is his bassist. How could someone who is so awesome on the six string bass and upright bass sound bad?

I have to agree with you on Dave Holland. I just love his playing on Pat Metheny's Question and Answer album. Arguably one of the best recorded jam sessions in jazz?

Irwin - the Footprints album is not an easy listen (nothing like his old stuff) and to maybe see it live (it is a live album by the way) in a small jazz club and it could be digestible. In a bigger hall as this was, it does not come across well so that had a big say in the enjoyment. The musicians as you say are all excellent as individuals.

I used to be a big Dave Holland fan and saw him a couple of times in the early nineties at Ronnie Scotts with great bands. Awesome stiff with Kenny Kirkland and Marvin Smitty Smith.

MilesSmiles (from this forum) and I went to see Dave live at the Sydney Opera House and it was bland, formulaic and poor sound (I could not hear the bass). So I tried again last year at the Brighton Dome and unfortunately did not enjoy. This was on a double bill where the first act was Andy Sheppard who is very lyrical and enjoyable which added to the difficulty listening to Dave. Dave is very popular these days in the US but it no longer excites me as it did back when he had his "Extensions" band.

I do like the Metheny Question and Answer album. I get to see Pat Metheny in a few weeks on his new project Orchestrion.

Cheers

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Originally posted by irwan shah:
I was listening to Wayne Shorter's Night Dreamers and Juju last night (both Rudy Van Gelder editions). Jazz sounds fantastic on a Supernait. The guy was a worthy replacement for Coltrane.

Will history place him on the same exalted pedestal as Coltrane?

You are comparing Mount Everest and Snowdon

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Also, check out "Adams Apple", any of the Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers albums, as well as the Weather Report catalog.

'Adam's Apple' is a great album. I managed to get a copy on vinyl while visiting Melbourne a couple of years on a work related trip. As far as Weather Report goes, I only have a 'Greatest Hit' CD at this moment and got there by a different route. I was listening to Jaco Pastorius and worked my way back to his days with that great band. Thanks for the tip, I will look into Art Blakey. He must have been one of the great teachers as so many legendary musicians played with him in their early years.

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used to be a big Dave Holland fan and saw him a couple of times in the early nineties at Ronnie Scotts with great bands. Awesome stiff with Kenny Kirkland and Marvin Smitty Smith.

MilesSmiles (from this forum) and I went to see Dave live at the Sydney Opera House and it was bland, formulaic and poor sound (I could not hear the bass). So I tried again last year at the Brighton Dome and unfortunately did not enjoy. This was on a double bill where the first act was Andy Sheppard who is very lyrical and enjoyable which added to the difficulty listening to Dave. Dave is very popular these days in the US but it no longer excites me as it did back when he had his "Extensions" band.

I do like the Metheny Question and Answer album. I get to see Pat Metheny in a few weeks on his new project Orchestrion.

I am green with envy. You are so lucky to get access to so many great gigs.

Kenny Kirkland ... may his soul rest in peace. I just loved his work with Sting on the 'Nothing Like the Sun' album. It would not have been the same without Kenny! The album below is pretty good too.

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You are comparing Mount Everest and Snowdon

In my humble opinion, in terms of musicianship on the sax, Coltrane is by far the superior player. But Shorter is pretty good too. When 'God' (i.e. Coltrane) plays, it makes everyone looks bad, even if it you are the Archangel! Anyway, I am quite partial to Snowdon and in particular Wales, having spent almost a decade of my adult life there. Great place for jazz too. Anyone here been to the Brecon Jazz fest?

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Originally posted by irwan shah:
Anyone here to the Brecon Jazz fest?

I went once and saw Paul Motian Electric Bepop Band and Joshua Redman. Might go again this year
if the fest is on.

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I went once and saw Paul Motian Electric Bepop Band and Joshua Redman. Might go again this year if the fest is on.

Did not know that Paul Motian did 'electric' stuff. I only remember him playing on Bill Evans' albums. Any good?

Huge Joshua Redman fan! Have all his albums. But this is my favourite:

He was in Malaysia recently, but I did not get to go and see his concert due to work commitments.

Paul was good but it so long ago now that I cannot really remember it. Joshua would have been my highlight as I was a huge fan back then.

Here is my CD he signed for me at Brecon and that is me getting it signed! Outstanding photo work from my wife.

Lontano:
You're a lucky dude! Are you the guy with the knapsack?

Anyone have this one?

Dr Mark:
I do not have that one. What is the music like? One odd piece that I have is a Wayne Shorter album titled 'Atlantis' on vinyl which I picked up from an Oxfam shop for about 99p. Among the fusion albums, I prefer 'High Life'.

'Phantom Navigator' is a fusion album that was strongly influenced by Wayne's obsession with sci-fi and fantasy - stylistically it resembles late period Weather Report. Have had the vinyl since it came out and and enjoy it. There's also vocal input on one track from Wayne's late second wife Anna-Maria (tragically killed in a major air accident back in the 1990s). Michelle Mercer's biography of Wayne is a recommended read for comprehensive details of his career.

'High Life' is another good one and is essentially a collaboration with keyboardist/composer Rachel Z.

All of the Blue Notes are great. Of the lesser known ones I would recommend the superb quartet session, 'Etcetera' (reissued by Blue Note in their 'Conn' series - it was held back by Blue Note at time of recording and only released on vinyl in the late 70s), 'Schizophrenia' (with it's fiery front line including Curtis Fuller (trombone) and James Spaulding (woods)) and the obscure 'Oddessey Of Iska', which looks ahead to the sound of early Weather Report and the collaborations with Milton Nascimento.

Bob_B:

Thank you for the recommendations. I will try to track down the albums.

How much input did Rachel Z have on 'High Life' in addition to playing keyboards? Shorter composed all the songs himself and Marcus Miller played bass and a few other instruments in addition to production duties. Any idea whether this is an extension of their days from playing with Santana at the Montreux Jazz Festival?

Were you thinking of the following when mentioning Milton Nascimento?



Great album. Will soon rip it for storage on my hard disk.

Has anyone listened to this? ... :


What do you think of it? It is described on Amazon UK as a glimpse into what Shorter was before his great Blue Note albums. Sadly, no clips to listen to on the site.

That was me with the rucksack in the early 90's

Here you go clips

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/d...Genesis/hnum/8377528

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Originally posted by irwan shah:
Bob_B:

Thank you for the recommendations. I will try to track down the albums.

How much input did Rachel Z have on 'High Life' in addition to playing keyboards? Shorter composed all the songs himself and Marcus Miller played bass and a few other instruments in addition to production duties. Any idea whether this is an extension of their days from playing with Santana at the Montreux Jazz Festival?

Were you thinking of the following when mentioning Milton Nascimento?



Great album. Will soon rip it for storage on my hard disk.

No problem !

I don't know whether or not the Rachel Z collaboration followed on from Santana Montreux but I did read that Rachel Z did the arrangements on 'High Life' with input from Wayne and that she stayed at Wayne's home whilst putting the album together.

Yes, I was thinking of the 'Native Dancer' album re: Nascimento. 'Odyssey Of Iska' (and the even less well known known 'Moto Grosso Feio' ) precede that album by a few years.

That 'Second Genesis' is great stuff. Early material recorded when Shorter was a member of Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers and recorded for Vee-Jay in Chicago. Mosaic Records brought out a fantastic box of all that material plus similar sessions (some with Shorter) recorded under Lee Morgan's name. That is one heck of a box set ! (sadly now Out Of Print).