Rover

I think the truth is that rover went tits up many years ago and has been on life support since. Of course, that's not to excuse the behaviour of the current executives.


regards,

Tam

Martin

You can only save Rover when enough people buy their cars.

Anything else is pointless.

The main problem is the Longbridge site, it is totally unsuitable for building cars economically. It is on a slope which makes production costs prohibitive and it is hopelessly outclassed by newer facilities such as Honda, Toyota and Nissan where the complete car is made on one site. Longbridge has the most inefficient supply chain imagineable and frankly it is spitting in the wind against better competition.

Customers are drifting away and that spells the end.

Sad but true.

Regards

Mick

Bad news for the workers/suppliers

But looking on the bright side for a moment... we'll be able to purchase ZT 260s for a fiver tomorrow. V8 saloon hoonage for the price of a couple of pints.

Steve

Oh, I thought this was about a dog?

Bandits Bandits at 12 O'clock, Rover and Out.


Fritz Von And like the Male lion roared after eating its second batch of kids, T'was hard to swallow my pride, innit

Mick - spot on. I'd just add that their way of working i.e. build the cars and then offer discounts in a desparate attempt to sell them is a path that has led to the death of many other manufacturers. Toyota sell the cars and THEN make them.

One word. Product.

No amount of brand loyalty by the UK market (and that has been astonishingly loyal really) can disguise the fact that it is hard to think of a single product made by BL/Rover in the last 20 years (or more?) that has been a class leader or even close. Ultimately if you have no big profit-making sellers you cannot invest, and your product gets weaker. And weaker.

I don't see the point of propping up the company any more, and I do not see MG surviving as a specialist micro-brand either.

Very sad for the employees and associated industries but the writing has been on the wall for years.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
One word. Product.


Very sad for the employees and associated industries but the writing has been on the wall for years.

Bruce

More than sad. A disaster. But not an unexpected one, as you say. The brand loyalty enjoyed by Rover over the years is staggering in view of the products. They haven't all been duffers but they've all been over priced, under developed and kept alive long after their expiry dates.

Rover products have been uncompetitive for as long as I can remember. The last one I even considered was the the 420 Turbo as at the time it was the fastest car in its band in our company car list at the time. A test drive stopped me getting one though (it was shit) and I got a VTi Honda Civic instead.

I thought Rover and Honda continuing to work together should have been the way forward but (if I recall correctly) someone decided a BMW tie-in was a better idea...

What is it with British companys?
Rover is the last of a very long chain that has unfortunatly gone down the drain.The problems with British Industry can not be laid as they usually are, by those who know no better, at the feet of the workers,who for their part have literally in some cases given their lifes blood to feed industry. After complaints from Rolls Royces Management in the early 80's regarding the output from their factories compared to the output of our American competitors, we commissioned a research project to be undertaken by a independant organization called "Labour Research" when their findings were published it was found that in general, the output from both organisations was similar but the American company had the advantage of more up to date machinery and processes, ie the British work force actually had to work phyisically harder for the same output, due to the handicap of much older plant and also,for much lower wages.
In all of the companys that I "used" to work for there was always a distinct lack of investment in both the manufacturing and development side of things, from both the Motor Cycle industry, right through to the Aero Industry,the irony in all of this,is of course that the greatest investment made in companys in the Coventry area in the 1980/1990 period was by a relatively unknown[ well to us he was then ] fellow who went by the name of Saddam Hussein, who was buying up and heavily investing in M/c tool companys, such as Coventry Gauge & tool, Alfred Herberts , Forge Masters, and quite a few others.Little or few examples of investment were in evidence by British Boards/Share Holders,for example, whilst I was at Rolls Royce we were working with machinery that still had War Ministry plaques from the last world war attached to them, but we were still expected to produce state of the art engines in a competitive market.
M.G.Rover are a shining example of little or none investment with the latest managment team seaminly only concerned with asset stripping, and insuring that their £10 investment has adequately lined thier own private pension funds to the figure I am lead to believe of £40 million.My feelings go out to the 20,000 people whose lives have just been turned upside down or destroyed through no fault of their own.
oldie.

Chaps
Anyone with a grain of sense would have left Rover years ago.

It has been dying for the last twenty years for a number of reasons but again if I was in their workforce 10 years ago, I would have been getting out as fast as possible.

I feel sorry for all concerned but at the end of the day, no one bought their cars because they were outdated and if no one buys your goods, you sink.

Even if the Chinese deal went ahead, it would only be a stop gap. Do you really think they would pump money into a knackered facility like longbridge when they could have several purpose built units in China for a fraction of the cost.

Good to see Honda, Toyota and Nissan doing well and they turn out good value cars that we have confidence in buying. This is where the future lies, so let us forget Rover and concentrate on the more modern and successful manufacturers.

There is no room for sentiment in a global economy and do not waste your time lamenting because it is pointless and counter productive.

Regards

Mick

quote:

After complaints from Rolls Royces Management in the early 80's regarding the output from their factories compared to the output of our American competitors, we commissioned a research project to be undertaken by a independant organization called "Labour Research" when their findings were published it was found that in general, the output from both organisations was similar but the American company had the advantage of more up to date machinery and processes, ie the British work force actually had to work phyisically harder for the same output, due to the handicap of much older plant and also,for much lower wages.

As I think I've mentioned on the forum before, my father (an engineer/scientist) told me that the management techniques he learnt in the USA as a student in the early 1940s only started to become commonplace in Britain in the 1980s. These are the same techniques that the Japanese used (and improved on) to build up their industry after the war.

Also, in the USA, it was commonplace for managers to be engineers who actually understood their industry. Here, they were most often arts graduates, who simply lacked the knowledge to make competent decisions on their own.

It didn't - and doesn't - help that what are called "technicians" and "mechanics" in the rest of the world have traditionally been called "engineers" here, discouraging people from becoming engineers. I bet Berlin Fritz wouldn't dream of asking an "engineer" to fix his washing machine? [I hope I'm not being presumptuous in assuming he possesses such a bourgeois contraption].

Mick, you are a heartless old sod! it was only a few post ago you posted this :-

Oldie

A bit of sympathy would not come amiss.

Regards

Mick

And that was only over allegedly £20 grand, which you now claim "allegebly" that by some mysterious forces[I will not call it fiddling the Tax system as that could be construed as libellous]that this sum has now been reduced to zero, and the golden pot is now overflowing with cash just for you
Whilst for once [It does happen every now and again] I wouldn't totaly disagree with your comments regarding the malaise of British Companys, one has to remember that closure of this last "British Motor Company" will have a disastrous effect on the lives of many thousands of people, and for once a little sympathy and understanding on your part wouldn't go amiss.
oldie
PS please don't give me the usual old rhetoric
about everybody seeing it coming, 20 Odd Thousand people and their dependants, and one other old sod, doesn't want to hear it this time!!

I think I own a car made by Britains largest wholly UK owned motor manufacturer. They sell about 500 cars a year I believe.


Bruce

Yes, I feel sorry for all the people who are going to lose their jobs, but that ought to be lessened somewhat by the £40m the government has today announced for the region. Remember also, that vast amounts of tax payers money have been spent in recent years to flog this dead horse, and it has clearly been dead or dying for a good few years. Anyone sensible would have been looking to get out, and most of Rover's sensible suppliers have been doing their level best to diversify in recent years.

Yes, this is the last 'british' motor company, but a great many cars are still made and designed here, even if the companies doing so weren't british owned. And, to be honest, nobody who doesn't own a Rover, has any right to bemoan the loss of this company. Why, it's cars weren't good enough, plain and simple. I don't own one, I didn't even consider one and most of the rest of us didn't either.

I think it's this kind of sentimentalism that's to blame for some of the current problems: Towers' consortium won Rover largely out of a misplaced desire to keep it going. It turns out that their motivations may have been more selfish and less altruistic. Now, not only do we have a major company going bust, but it's doing so with a big hole in its pensions fund.

On the subject of investment, a good deal of money has been pumped into the longbridge plant, the real issue lately has been lack of new products.

There are still plenty of things, both in fields of manufacturing and design, and elsewhere, that this country does extremely well, Rover just wasn't one of them. It should have been left to the markets many years ago.



regards,

Tam

Jeremy D old Chap, You are quite right I don't 'anymore' possess a washing machine, but not for the reasons you imply. Having for many years now at least three times a week enjoyed doing my Dobi-Wash by hand, as both a form of dicipline and meditation. Believe it or not, I'm quite capable of repairing such a machine amongst others myself, but if I weren't you're quite right I wouldn't belittle an engineers skills by asking him, unless I had more money than sense that is, as well as the aesthetic aspect naturally, innit ?

Cheers, Fritz Von I've been a Wild Rover for many a year, and I've spent all my money on Charity and Fear

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Yes, I feel sorry for all the people who are going to lose their jobs, but that ought to be lessened somewhat by the £40m the government has today announced for the region.

Really? Well...there's a surprise ....the region in question wouldn't just happen to consist of a bunch of (Labour) marginal constituencies, would it by any chance...?

Don't get me wrong Jon, I think this government is motivated by pretty base instincts most of the time, but I think even they'd put in money to help if the longbridge plant had been in the safest tory seat in the country. That said, it does help the workers that they're in marginal seats and it's and election.

It's like that classic yes minister where the programme a state visit to help with the by-election result in "key marginal constitue... I mean depressed areas"


regards,

Tam

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
Yes, I feel sorry for all the people who are going to lose their jobs, but that ought to be lessened somewhat by the £40m the government has today announced for the region.

Really? Well...there's a surprise ....the region in question wouldn't just happen to consist of a bunch of (Labour) marginal constituencies, would it by any chance...?

Ooooh that's a difficult one Jon. I'm going to have to have a really good think about that and get back......

When BMW threw in the towel a few years back and Rover once again became a wholly British-owned company, my first thought was:

I bet those typically tight-fisted self-interested little wankers don't spend a penny on developing replacements for the current models.

The Rover 75 had only just been launched but any decent management team would have already had their sights on its replacement.

But if you're a British board of directors it just isn't going to happen.

The British Disease starts from the top.

Steve,

I don't think that failure to innovate, or tight-fisted, self-interested and incompetent management is a uniquely British disease. I think you'll find plenty of examples in the states and in mainland Europe.

Similarly, there are plenty or innovative British companies. It's simply the case the Rover wasn't one of them. Of course, part of Rover's problems stem from the self-completing cycle that the more uncertainty there was in the Rover brand the fewer people bought it, the few people bought it the less money there was for investment in new designs, and the less investment in new designs the more uncertainty.... and so on.


regards,

Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
When BMW threw in the towel a few years back and Rover once again became a wholly British-owned company, my first thought was:

I bet those typically tight-fisted self-interested little wankers don't spend a penny on developing replacements for the current models.

The Rover 75 had only just been launched but any decent management team would have already had their sights on its replacement.

But if you're a British board of directors it just isn't going to happen.

The British Disease starts from the top.

Just like when B.Aerospace took them over in 88, innit.

Fritz Von Ego trips don't pay the rent still

I recently had cause to hire a car.

The hire car company was based in the local Rover MG garage.

So to kill 3 minutes i had a good look at what was on offer.

Utter TAT.

The paint on all the cars had glaring blemishes, even evidence of bodgit touch up and crappy overspray.

Every car had damage to the paint work.

The fabrics in the interiors were very poorly finished with loose threads as the finishing was poor.

They looked old in design and the execution of the update an old dog of a car looked just that.

The MG F was appalling in its quality and finish. It was uncomfortable to it in and just felt horrible.

The only glimmer of hope was the MG (rover 75 ) ZT sports saloon.

Which looked good and had a reasonable sense of presence.

The seats were comfortable and the interior as a whole was quite a reasonable place to listen to the radio.

But HOW MUCH.

I WOULD WANT A BMW FOR THAT PRICE.

So poor cars crappily made and no buyers at the end of it.

As an aside the hire car back from Stanstead was a SKODA OCTAVIA.

What a pleasant surprise.

Well made very comfortable . The engine had plenty of poke for a turbo diesel and was a pleasant place to be for the 2 hour drive home.

A very impressive car and then you look at the price and it is a no brainer. No wonder taxi drivers seem to be buying them in large nos.

regards David

Tam,
Unfortunatly, In my limited experience of actually having worked in the Midlands in a similar situation, albit some years ago , and having been in the same position as the people at Longbridge[ROLLS ROYCE LTD 1970, Failed due to poor management, bailed out at a cost of £380 MILLION and then sold off for 80 million].Don't forget this kind of tragedy doesn't just effect the people that work in the factorys ,but spreads like a cancer right through the area and brings social depreciation to the area and all that, that entails.Finally I doubt, again on personal experance,] If a penny of that 40 million will ever get to the people it's supposed to go to ,it will end up as usual in the hands of all of the little Training Companys, Advisory agencys , quango's and other fly by night companys that will spring up like mushrooms on a muck heap after rain.All of the proffits from the Car manufactoring Companys left, will go as they did to "us"during the Victorian Empire period, back to the Country of origin of the investment,and if this trend carrys on to it's final conclusion,so called "Great Britian" will not be called even "tian"
oldie.

Rover has suffered much as described here. It is a disease of bad leadership at the top. Poor product development and poor quality have not helped at all.

BMW called it "The English Patient", who said those Germans have no sense of humour.

However the writing has been on the wall for Rover since the mid eighties at least. It has had some success, for example the Mini and Land Rover range. It also used to build bodies for Rolls Royce for a while!

A sad end to the mass manufacture British Car Industry.