Sound Organisation table

For the record, there are three different versions of the "original" 2-tier SO table. The first had just a top shelf but later had clips which would allow a second shelf to be added. Avoid this one as the Nait sounds worse on it than the floor. The second version came with screws that fit in holes on the inside of the frame which acted as the bracket. The Nait sounds the same on this as being on the floor. The final version has the top and bottom brackets welded on. This is the one you want. The very old units also came with black-painted MDF shelves. The newer, better sounding shelves are black, but vinyl-wrapped.
In closing: a welded bracket SO table, with vinyl-wrapped shelves looks good and makes a CDX/Nait sound better than being on the floor. It should sell used for about $40. making it good value. It also may be improved by using Fraim-Chips. Anyone tried this?

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

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Rejected on basis of sound.

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Then you obviously set it up wrong.

Alex

I didn't set it up - FlatEarth Audio did.

But I'm sure you're right and it was all down to daft setup.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Except for the cheesy Mana decal, I can't see that much difference between my Mana stands, my Target rack and my now-retired Sound Org tables. Even the shelves look alike when they're covered up with black boxes.
Alco--Next time you're in the States, make me an offer.

Sorry for being pedantic but I clearly recall that the first examples of the Sound Organisation Floor Stand (as it was originally called) had clipped on top shelf pointy brackets which, along with a spare shelf, could also be used on the lower cross members to convert it into a two shelf stand for amp support duty.

Later models had welded on top shelf pointy bits(we can't really call them spikes can we?) and had the lower cross pieces drilled to accept plastic cylinders that were screwed in to support a bottom shelf (these cylinders often broke due to overzealous tightening and spare Sondek feet were a common substitute - the plastic sounds better IMO but some swear by metal nuts).

Another distinction was that the early examples had substantial non-adjustable welded in floor spikes as opposed to the later Z0?? models that had adjustable ones. Sinking Pozidrive screws into the floor boards was not an option in those days.

The original Sound Organisation principals made a big deal at the time about welded in spikes being superior to adjustable but later quietly gave in to convenience and/or market pressure. The finger tight Mana brigade must have them scratching their 'eads.

My guess is that there were more versions of the old Floor Stand than we can meaningfully count as I have seen a few 'crossover' variants lying about the dealers over the years. The old record rack was pretty cool. I passed on the dealers old demo last year and have been kicking myself since.

BTW, wasn't it the 'holes drilled in top corners to allow stacking' feature that got Mr. Watson working his iron mongery on building an add-on shelf accessory and in so doing spawned his holy bread?

Whoops better shut that door before the shite flies in.

Craig
PS. Wot are fraim-chips Mon?

What a sad bunch of weirdos we are!

You will be assimilated.

Steve

Having owned enough Mana for all my goodies, I have a clear and unambiguous preference for SO, particularly with my Lp12.

I reject Mana on the basis of sound alone (I happen to think it looks ok--as good as other black iron, anyway).

To my ears, the Mana equipment makes my Lp12 sound more like a P9. For those that like Mana (and particularly, the P9), I guess that is the whole point. But for those that like the Lp12 (qua Lp12), Mana ought to be heretical. That is continues to proliferate under Lp12's suggests to me that Rega ought to be doing better than it does (or maybe it does well enough already). That one could wax lyrical about the "old" LP12 bearing, and THEN sing the praises of Mana is shear lunacy.

Still, I cannot say here that Mana does not do what is claimed. To my ears, it does. I just don't happen to dig it. There are others who agree (most don't). In the end, it is my opinion that the Mana stuff changes the way the Lp12 sounds. The SO table, on the other hand, builds on the strengths of the Lp12 without eviscerating the "plumby" quality in the bass and the "charactor" of the midrange. (I do NOT suggest here that the LP12 on Mana has "less" character. It has as much, just differant).

That said, my two favorate Naim/Linn dealers in the states do not put their Lp12's (one doesn't sell Lp12's, but he has 4 in the shop for demo purposes--many of his customers have them) on Mana or soundorg. They use Audiotech/Arcidea. And to my ears, these are the very best LP12 stands I have ever heard/owned.

They have the essential qualities of a good Lp12 stand. They are ultra light (Mana is, by any measure---really fucking heavy), ultra rigid, spiked on top and bottom, and use laminated (or wrapped) mdf shelves.

My lp12 on my Arcidae stand has "bounce", which is to say "groove", which is to say "mojo". It also has "color", a quality woefully lacking when sitting atop Mana. (BTW, since when did this become a dirty word? You know, pink is no closer to red than is orange).

The indesputable fact is, however, that there will be several people who have owned Arcidae, audiotech and SO and whatever else, and have since moved to Mana "on the basis of sound", both for thier Lp12s and thier black boxes. So "legitimate" opinions vary.

Still, having been around this merrygoround more than once, I've learned one or two things, little more important than this: if it fails to make music on one stand, it won't make music on another. And vice versa. My lp12 still sounded "great" on Mana. It sounds "great" on SO. I think it sounds "great +" on Arcidae, but no better.

Judd

Does Mana reveal more of the detail hidden on a CD or LP record when placed under electronics?

Absolutely.

Does Mana improve the performance of speakers when placed under them too?

Yes, in two ways:
Firstly, the speakers themslves are more stable, better isolated from the floor, and are therefore able to transfer more energy within the room itself, and less into the floor.

Secondly, the electronics themselves will pick up less vibration through the floor from the speakers.

Does Mana play music?

Yes, it is tuneful, lyrical, emotive, subtle, and yet will play "dirty" when asked to.

Does Mana sound harsh, forward or aggressive?

Only if set up incorrectly, or it is revealing flaws elsewhere in the system, notably hierarchical issues.

Is Mana the only performance stand worth considering?

No. Other stands may suit personal tastes. QS Ref, for example, places more emphasis on musical aspects, but is probably less explicit than Mana.
This is a relative statement given that Mana is musical also but its talents don't stop there.

Does adding more Mana in the form of Sound Stage, Sound Bases or a Reference top improve the performance further?

It certainly does, and the gains are as unpredictable as the previously hidden detail revealed on discs as a result.

Should anyone sacrifice performance for appearance?

No, but SWMBO may be deaf or have issues of domestic politics.

Do I think that Mana is ugly?

No.

Do I think that QS Ref is pretty?

No.

Should anyone spend money on a rack which does nothing to enhance the performance of equipment placed upon it (or make the equipment work as it should...)?

No, that would be very silly, imho.

Is the Fraim any good?

It sounds good, looks very nice, but I suspect that most of the money goes into making it look pretty, imho, given its cost.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

You said;

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Sorry for being pedantic but I clearly recall that the first examples of the Sound Organisation Floor Stand (as it was originally called) had clipped on top shelf pointy brackets which, along with a spare shelf, could also be used on the lower cross members to convert it into a two shelf stand for amp support duty.

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You may have seen old floor stands with clips (never pointy) but what often happened was someone sat on it or put too much weight on it (ie; two 135s) and broke the original welds.
The first SO "LP-12" stand, which later had the capability of becoming a 2-shelfer always had welded "spikes". This was circa 1982. In 1985 they came out with the plastic clips for the bottom shelf for extra cost. The record-rack was never really a product but a "V" which was inserted in place of the top shelf. It was a clever way to make money when many folks were putting an Audiotech under their LP-12 and had an extra SO unused. Around this time SO also started making 3 and 4 shelf models in which all shelf levels had welded points.
Also, if anyone here does have or gets a 2 shelf model with the screw-type shelf kit, do not use the supplied plastic (or Linn feet); use just the screws as this sounds best.


Judd,
In general, I agree with what you wrote above. Are you using the Trampolin? Are the dealers you alluded to using it? I seem to be a lone voice here in praise of the Trampolin, but it definitely sounds better with the Audiotech stand than baseboardless or standard baseboards; more tune, more bounce, more color.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

I forgot to mention the Naim Fraim-Chips. They are a high-cost way to improve your Fraim, DBLs, SBLs, etc. They are similar to Linn Skeet but also improve the performance. I was sort of cracking a joke as four Fraim-Chips cost as much as two used SO stands that Alco is looking for. But who knows, it may sound good and be cost effective. Have any of you Mana users tried them?

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

I guess I could have just lit the blue touch paper by saying "Mana Sucks" then run away...

Maybe I am missing the point (or should that be finger tight spikes) but I don't understand why these thing provoke such passion.

Seagull.

p.s. I still think Mans is ugly. My SO table was only ever functional and not pretty.

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but I don't understand why these thing provoke such passion.

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Nor do I.

As a user myself, I've yet to get wood over this iron.

Alco,

What did you expect, friend? Of course a rack thread will degenerate into silliness heheh.

Who wants a rack that turns you into a madman?

I say get whatever you fancy and poo poo the rest-Blaze yer own trail!

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Alco,

What did you expect, friend? Of course a rack thread will degenerate into silliness heheh

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Phew, I guess you're right, Mike!

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I say get whatever you fancy and poo poo the rest-Blaze yer own trail!

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ehhh, yeah,..well,...Whatever that means in plain Englsih. (I am Dutch ya know) I guess you mean something like:"Go your own way, if you like something for whatever the reason, don't give a .... about what others have to say." am I right ?

we'll see, right now I have to slow down a bit, (financially that is) as I just received my new PC yesterday!
(man, it's such an improvement over my 'old' one)

well, see Y'all,

Greetings,
Alco

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guess you mean something like:"Go your own way, if you like something for whatever the reason, don't give a .... about what others have to say." am I right ?

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Couldn't have said it better myself!

I've already explained the cause of the glass problem. Get over it.

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If it was set up correctly, you would hear a huge improvement.

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So tell me, how do you set it up correctly?

That's your answer? I'm disappointed.
I've followed the FAQ to the letter, but what's the secret magic trick that everyone seems to be hiding from me?

Hey, don't get me wrong I'm all for huge improvement. Maybe one day if I can be bothered I'll re-set it a fourth time.

The fact that John of Mana Audio uses Naim electronics for his own listening, the Mana stands are tuned for Naim equipment. You can't go wrong. if you buy Mana rack(s) since Mana stands will enhance the Naim sound. I use Mana too and love them. Also John (of Mana Audio) is a very nive person to do business with.

Looks like its time to start another thread if you want your question answered. This one's a gonner.

And I think its "Archidee" but I could be mistaken. A friend has his LP12 on one - fab!

James: I can't be bothered to answer your question. Do a search if you like - I've answered this before.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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Alco,
Looks like its time to start another thread if you want your question answered. This one's a gonner.

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Yup, guess you're right Greg.
well, I did get some good replies and advice.

I'll post a new thread when I have bought myself a new support. (I'll also try to post a pic)

Thanx y'all,

Greetings,
Alco

I don't use the trampoline. I go sans baseboard, right onto the shelf. I do use the standard rubber feet though.

I do not think Accent on Music or Promusica use the trampoline, but I could be wrong. I don't remember seeing them (and they do make themselves know, no).


I'm not sure of the spelling of Archidee or Archidea, but it does sound fab.

Judd

John uses a Ninja LP12, Naim CDS1, Naim 52 (mainly for the remote), Mana Stealth poweramp, Linn Isobarik speakers.

I don't think he has claimed the Naim parts are performing on Mana any better than the others.

Alex

What doe this turntable stand look like? Pictures anyone?

Paul

This is the best picture I can do given the 30 k constraint. And, I have no webspace from which to serve it.

Judd