160 - upgrade to 180?
Posted by: HandyAndy on 10 September 2003
Hi
I've just acquired a 20 year old 160 (along with a 72/hi-cap) which has never been serviced.
I know I can either just have it serviced/re-capped, or I can have the power supply upgraded to 180 spec at the same time for not a great deal more.
The question is, should I?
I'm very unlikely to get the chance to compare a serviced 160 with an upgraded 160, so I'm looking for any views or experience anyone may have.
What difference should I expect to hear beween the sound of a 160 upgraded to 180 spec and one that's just been serviced/recapped?
- still distinctively a 160 but'better'?
- somewhere between the qualities of a 160 and 180?
- more like a 180?
And most importantly, is the expected result the most desirable?
I know that's a matter of opinion, but opinions are what I'm looking for
So - should I or shouldn't I?
Andy
I've just acquired a 20 year old 160 (along with a 72/hi-cap) which has never been serviced.
I know I can either just have it serviced/re-capped, or I can have the power supply upgraded to 180 spec at the same time for not a great deal more.
The question is, should I?
I'm very unlikely to get the chance to compare a serviced 160 with an upgraded 160, so I'm looking for any views or experience anyone may have.
What difference should I expect to hear beween the sound of a 160 upgraded to 180 spec and one that's just been serviced/recapped?
- still distinctively a 160 but'better'?
- somewhere between the qualities of a 160 and 180?
- more like a 180?
And most importantly, is the expected result the most desirable?
I know that's a matter of opinion, but opinions are what I'm looking for
So - should I or shouldn't I?
Andy
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by i am simon 2
Andy
I have an old 160, approx 1984 vintage. Before I bougt it I was using a late ninties olive case 180 lent to me by a friend, whilst I saved up for a power amp.
I was ready to be a little disapointed when I gave the 180 back and pluged in the 160, but I was not.
Whilst the sound is different, I would not say it is so much better than the 160. In the context of my system anyway, which at the time was rega planar 3 42.5 and ruark epilouges.
I found the 180 to be clean, very fast, tight, not harsh but almost, maybe clinical would be a good description, yet very musical. It blasts music at you in quite an exciting way.
The 160 on the other hand is smoother and whilst it may not have the same level of fine detail as the 180, it is still articulate and powerful.
It is relaxed with its delivery, making it easy to listen to, yet it is still grovy when it needs to be.
Where the 180 is powerful and shows this fact off in an in your face way, the 160 knows it does not have to show off.
I dont know if the above will make any sense to you, and others hear may be better placed to give advise, but the 160 is a bargin power amp.
With a 72 and Hicap it will sound fab. Try and have a listen to a 180 in the system and then see if the extra cost of the upgrade is worth it, oteherwise just get the service.
Also think about resale values. Lots of people like the 160, and a recapped 160 may be worth more than the value of a 180 that is a converted 160 less the cost of the upgrade.
Either way, enjoy it.
Kind regards
Simon
I have an old 160, approx 1984 vintage. Before I bougt it I was using a late ninties olive case 180 lent to me by a friend, whilst I saved up for a power amp.
I was ready to be a little disapointed when I gave the 180 back and pluged in the 160, but I was not.
Whilst the sound is different, I would not say it is so much better than the 160. In the context of my system anyway, which at the time was rega planar 3 42.5 and ruark epilouges.
I found the 180 to be clean, very fast, tight, not harsh but almost, maybe clinical would be a good description, yet very musical. It blasts music at you in quite an exciting way.
The 160 on the other hand is smoother and whilst it may not have the same level of fine detail as the 180, it is still articulate and powerful.
It is relaxed with its delivery, making it easy to listen to, yet it is still grovy when it needs to be.
Where the 180 is powerful and shows this fact off in an in your face way, the 160 knows it does not have to show off.
I dont know if the above will make any sense to you, and others hear may be better placed to give advise, but the 160 is a bargin power amp.
With a 72 and Hicap it will sound fab. Try and have a listen to a 180 in the system and then see if the extra cost of the upgrade is worth it, oteherwise just get the service.
Also think about resale values. Lots of people like the 160, and a recapped 160 may be worth more than the value of a 180 that is a converted 160 less the cost of the upgrade.
Either way, enjoy it.
Kind regards
Simon
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by J.N.
Hi Andy
I too had a 20 year old 160, that had never been serviced. I went for the 'full monty' 180 p/s upgrade and was not disappointed.
Pre the service; the 160 sounded soft, ill defined and slow (by comparison).
The service/upgrade will give you a very fine power amplifier at a relatively low cost.
However; at the risk of confusing you further, you ought to get a listen to a new 150 or 200 before committing your funds to the upgrade.
The new amps sound quite different. You need to work out which sound you prefer.
Good luck.
I too had a 20 year old 160, that had never been serviced. I went for the 'full monty' 180 p/s upgrade and was not disappointed.
Pre the service; the 160 sounded soft, ill defined and slow (by comparison).
The service/upgrade will give you a very fine power amplifier at a relatively low cost.
However; at the risk of confusing you further, you ought to get a listen to a new 150 or 200 before committing your funds to the upgrade.
The new amps sound quite different. You need to work out which sound you prefer.
Good luck.
Posted on: 10 September 2003 by Manu
JN,
in your case, it is difficult to say if the improvement comes from the upgrade or the recap.
A serviced 160 will sound softer than a 180.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
in your case, it is difficult to say if the improvement comes from the upgrade or the recap.
A serviced 160 will sound softer than a 180.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 11 September 2003 by J.N.
Manu
I've had a few Naim amps serviced in the last 20 years.
People speak of a 're-cap'.It isn't that simple. Naim will replace what needs replacing to get it up to spec. This can mean small individual components through to input sockets/speaker sockets and anything inbetween.
I would take issue with a 160 sounding softer than a 180. They are both relatively lean sounding, compared to a 250 (in my experience) and a fully serviced 160 has a pretty sharply etched sound.
Amps gradually go 'soft' and one forgets what they used to sound like.
I've had a few Naim amps serviced in the last 20 years.
People speak of a 're-cap'.It isn't that simple. Naim will replace what needs replacing to get it up to spec. This can mean small individual components through to input sockets/speaker sockets and anything inbetween.
I would take issue with a 160 sounding softer than a 180. They are both relatively lean sounding, compared to a 250 (in my experience) and a fully serviced 160 has a pretty sharply etched sound.
Amps gradually go 'soft' and one forgets what they used to sound like.
Posted on: 12 September 2003 by Rasher
I have a 160 upgraded to 180, and must say that this amp is the bargain of the used amp range. Mine is not in use at the moment - where are you in the UK?
Posted on: 12 September 2003 by Manu
JN,
You are right about recap. I know exactly what you are talking about: I do recaps, sorry services, from time to time... Joking, in fact, 5 to 10 per week.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
You are right about recap. I know exactly what you are talking about: I do recaps, sorry services, from time to time... Joking, in fact, 5 to 10 per week.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 12 September 2003 by Kevin-W
I have an upgraded 160, and everyone who's heard it, including my dealer, says it sounds sensational, particularly with my speakers. I haben't directly compared it to a 180 myself, but some people I've encountered reckon an upgraded 160 thrashes a 180 for sheer musiclity and fun.
FWIW, I paid £300 for it, and it's about the best bargain I've ever had.
Kevin
FWIW, I paid £300 for it, and it's about the best bargain I've ever had.
Kevin
Posted on: 12 September 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
_Manu_
I've had a few Naim amps serviced in the last 20 years.
People speak of a 're-cap'.It isn't that simple. Naim will replace what needs replacing to get it up to spec. This can mean small individual components through to input sockets/speaker sockets and anything inbetween.
.
It is a blessing to be in England and using Naim equipment. Here in Canada when you send for re-cap they just do the re-capping and nothing else (Manu please correct me if I am wrong). Only at Naim head-office location you will have this royal service...
Posted on: 12 September 2003 by Manu
Tuan,
You are wrong, we also do the Royal Service (we have the same Queen Ah AhAh).
Joke apart, anyone having done a recap by Dimexs since 2002 can be judge (i was not in charge before, so i don't know).
I've been trained by Mark at Naim HQ. I follow his recommandations "à la lettre".
I don't like the word "Recap", we do a full "rejuvenation": Changing caps takes only half the time we spend on a unit. I change all small parts like resistors having a trace of burn, replace non original parts (it happens quite often on old units). In a power amp, all output transistors are unsoldered, tested and resoldered mainly to remove the stress on the solder-joint due to heat dilatation, same for regulators.
And, of course, ALL components comes from Naim, nothing bought locally.
All units serviced for whatever reason play at least 24 hours, in harder than normal conditions, listened, and mesured again.
And all that is not enough, some time (very few times) something goes wrong, we have to add other tests/check-up : after one last week mis-adventure (sorry George, it happens to you), i've started to stress each wire at its solder joint.
That's only a few examples, but all we do insure your unit will sound at its best and for years.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
[This message was edited by Manu on SATURDAY 13 September 2003 at 04:18.]
You are wrong, we also do the Royal Service (we have the same Queen Ah AhAh).
Joke apart, anyone having done a recap by Dimexs since 2002 can be judge (i was not in charge before, so i don't know).
I've been trained by Mark at Naim HQ. I follow his recommandations "à la lettre".
I don't like the word "Recap", we do a full "rejuvenation": Changing caps takes only half the time we spend on a unit. I change all small parts like resistors having a trace of burn, replace non original parts (it happens quite often on old units). In a power amp, all output transistors are unsoldered, tested and resoldered mainly to remove the stress on the solder-joint due to heat dilatation, same for regulators.
And, of course, ALL components comes from Naim, nothing bought locally.
All units serviced for whatever reason play at least 24 hours, in harder than normal conditions, listened, and mesured again.
And all that is not enough, some time (very few times) something goes wrong, we have to add other tests/check-up : after one last week mis-adventure (sorry George, it happens to you), i've started to stress each wire at its solder joint.
That's only a few examples, but all we do insure your unit will sound at its best and for years.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
[This message was edited by Manu on SATURDAY 13 September 2003 at 04:18.]
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by Tuan
Manu. YOU are the Man in Canada for Naim. I am so glad.
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by Manu
I do my best.
And i'm backed by Naim in Salisbury and Dimexs.
Beeing also a dealer helps, i'm closer to you the end-user than they are. I think i understand better your needs and some time frustrations.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
And i'm backed by Naim in Salisbury and Dimexs.
Beeing also a dealer helps, i'm closer to you the end-user than they are. I think i understand better your needs and some time frustrations.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.