Naim DAC - part 2

Posted by: james n on 08 July 2009

Well i managed to slip out of work and i've seen the DAC myself now - i've been very interested given my front end is computer driven. I was quite lucky to get there early and so had the dem to myself. Unfortunately my dealer had laid on some live music. Just a girl and a guitar and she was superb and set a standard that the systems i would hear couldn't really compete with - i could have stayed and listened much longer but the DAC was calling...

Lets get the speakers out of the way first. Good looking and some very interesting design features. Sound, well the room wasn't ideal but i thought the Ovators had too much bass - almost like a badly adjusted sub. Mid and treble good though - very clean and detailed without harshness. This was driven via a 555/552/500 system.

Next up the new CDX2 with its switchable S/PDIF output. This sounded good, in fact i thought the Ovators bass was better on the end of the CDX2, mainly as the 555 goes so deep it wasn't doing the speakers any favours.

Onto the DAC - This is quite an assuming box as most have you have seen. Inputs are 4 Toslink, and 4 Coax - two of these are via BNC the other two RCA. Audio output is via DIN or RCA and there is the Burndy connector to allow PSU upgrades. USB connectors on the front and rear for an iPod or memory stick.

Internals - Jason explained that Jitter had been eliminated on the S/PDIF interface by clocking the data into memory and then clocking back out into another buffer which is synchronised to the internal clock - nothing very new there although i'll await the white paper with interest to see if Naim are doing something innovative with regards to jitter reduction.

The sound - well it was (to me) better than the CDX2 - voices had more presence more detail and the music flowed better. How good that it is i don't know - its better than the CDX2 but does that mean the DAC is a lot better or the standard CDX2 output stage isn't that hot. I'm sure that is not the case and for any CDX2 owners it'll be a decent upgrade with the option to add a PSU for further sonic pleasure.

The other thing the DAC does is that it'll play files from a memory stick and iPod. I'm a bit confused on the iPod side of things as the iPod is connected via the USB connector - Wadia connect to the Dock connector to take the raw digital data out of the iPod. As i see it (and i may be wrong), i'm not convinced that the DAC is 'doing a Wadia' - its just playing files from the iPod with the DAC providing 'transport' controls as i'm sure the USB interface wouldnt support raw data unless its in a proprietary format and the DAC is doing something else with it.

I was dissapointed to see no computer driving the DAC as with perfect jitter reduction it shouldnt really make a difference - Jason explained that the transports would sound different - but at this point i'm not too convinced. We then got onto computer ripping but again my own findings are different.

So is the DAC for me ? - well probably not. I'm not convinced by a fancy S/PDIF interface as being a good option for computer audio. The iPod connectivity is probably useful but seems a bit of an afterthought. I'd also need to hear it in my own system - the room, system and music was unfamiliar so no point of reference for me. As a digital hub in an all Naim system and an upgrade to HDX/CDX etc i'm sure it'll be a winner.

James
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
JS,

How many people have Firewire on their PC? Im not buying a PCI card just for that.

To me it makes far more sense to have a USB DAC that handles the conversion rather than 2 or even 3 other products.

It just introduces more variables that will be suspect.


...unless it can be demonstrated that a persistent electrical USB connection from an electrically noisy source device adversely affects the performance of the DAC as a whole, regardless of the currently-active source input.

USB is for plebs, IMHO, and I wouldn't miss it as a feature–after all, does one really care whether you can connect a $500 PC to a $3,500 DAC in a $10,000 system???

(That said, nearly every modern PC motherboard has some sort of onboard optical or coaxial SPDIF output connection as standard–no fuss, no USB.)

For $229, a streaming / control dongle in the form of an iPod touch seems quite cheap.
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by David Dever
You should upgrade to a silver one–no flaky paint and less radiated noise. Winker
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:

...unless it can be demonstrated that a persistent electrical USB connection from an electrically noisy source device adversely affects the performance of the DAC as a whole, regardless of the currently-active source input.


So..... has this been demonstrated? Seriously. I didnt know that!

I guess Ive enjoyed the music through my M-Audio UBS converter because it allows 24/96 playback and therefore sounds soooo good.

quote:

USB is for plebs, IMHO, and I wouldn't miss it as a feature–after all, does one really care whether you can connect a $500 PC to a $3,500 DAC in a $10,000 system???


I know Dave, I am an idiot and a jackass. But i am learning..... at least trying.

If you say USB is shite then I suppose it is shite.

I was under the false impression that computer soundcards were not the way to go or I would done that a LONG time ago. (My Riviera doesn't count)

I will grab a nice one and go from there. Any suggestions on a make or model?

What would be your choice if you had a PC and were not going to stream wirelessly?

Also, if only using a $500 computer and a $3000 system, which DAC might not be wasted in that set-up. Would you still recommend the Naim DAC for me in my particular case?

I know that is a strange question to ask an employee of a Naim distributor, but seriously... is the new Naim DAC really only worthwhile on a 282/HC/250 level kit?

Or should those of us on the lower end wait for a 5i level DAC? or look elsewhere?

Looking for guidance here. Until the last few months, I have been doing this DA thing all by myself.

thanks!
Patrick
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by David Dever
quote:
is the new Naim DAC really only worthwhile on a 282/HC/250 level kit?


??? (Who said that?)

But I have to say, the NAIT XS(-2) would be a fine match to the DAC–really happy with the performance of the current wave of new stuff, at the entry level and above.

Did you end up with a PSC?
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by JYOW
quote:
The other thing the DAC does is that it'll play files from a memory stick and iPod.


Besides being confused with the iPod part, I am even more confused about the USB memory stick part.

1. If it plays files from a memory stick, that means there is already a media player built in?

2. Given that, can it not support a 1-Terra Byte external USB drive? Sort of like the HDX?

3. Given that, why not a dollar ninety five network interface card to make it (almost) a full blown network player reading from a server? (Hint: Um, sort of like the Uniti or HDX

Franky, the recent Naim digital strategy is bizarre to people who are familiar with or have used network streamers and DACs before.

We are like this close to getting a pure network streamer with DAC in. So close and so far away....

Weiss Minerva is looming in my mirror wanting to speak to my Transporter. if I can replace both with this Naim DAC I would be a very happy Naim Man
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by JYOW
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
So it is confirmed that while the DAC has USB connectivity, it is exclusively for an iPod or Flash Drive? ... and this means it CANNOT be used as a USB "audio device" that can been "seen" by the computer as seemingly all other USB DACs are?

This is seriously disappointing to me.

Same here, this can just plain silly, for lack of a better word.

Why such a serious DAC to become someone's iPod dock?
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by SC
I am baffled as to how the same R&D department can produce something arguably as clever and 'modern' as the Uniti and then put the pipe and slippers back on for a separate DAC product..?! Confused

Protecting CDP sales ? Seems a naive approach for such a otherwise astute company.

Not understanding the DA market they are getting into ? Seems highly strange considering we have Naimnet, the HDX and recently the Uniti.

??

Like the AV department (another area where lots of new skirt could be chased), it's a head scratch...and frankly, bizarre.
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by Naijeru
I'm a little confused here. What's wrong with the DAC? It does not seem as if the functionality of the USB port hast been confirmed, so I find the weeping and gnashing of teeth to be a little premature. It *is* odd there have been no recent reports of demos with computer hardware, but I just discount the cd demos as irrelevant since I have no interest in cd playback. As for the iPod feature, it's not really worth comment. All this means the DAC is still pretty much a question mark.
Posted on: 08 July 2009 by JYOW
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
So it is confirmed that while the DAC has USB connectivity, it is exclusively for an iPod or Flash Drive? ... and this means it CANNOT be used as a USB "audio device" that can been "seen" by the computer as seemingly all other USB DACs are?

This is seriously disappointing to me.

It is very odd that Naim has developed this DAC for sole use with the HDX or the CDP line. Especially when you consider the rampant use of a PC/MAC front end, and the widely popular media players we have come accustomed to, and demand use of.

To need to add a TC or other USB-to-Digi converter in order to use this with a computer introduces variables I dont want to play with. I am already there now.

Unfortunately waiting a year for this info has proved to be pointless and frustrating.

The new DA-11 is now looking MIGHTY attractive. Sorry Naim. I waited and waited and waited. I should have assumed that my particular needs would not be filled by Naim. And I am trying not to bitch about it. I am just let down I suppose.

On to bigger and better things. A Naim source is not for me I guess. Well, Ill snatch up a nice used/exdem CD5i as soon as the new line of CDPs drops. It is a great player. But for 99% of my listening, i guess Ill have to look elsewhere.

Sincerely,
Bummed


I agree with most of what you said.

Although I would wait for the announcement. I am still in denial. The way this DAC is described is so bizarre that I am hoping this is misinterpreted.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by glevethan
Just finished reading this thread - and tired and confused by the entire thing. I already own a CDS3/555PS however I am not looking to spend even more money to A) retrofit my deck B) then purchase a DAC so as to C) obtain yet better results from silver discs that I want to GET RID of.

I want to be able to rip my CD's and have the convenience of playing them back through my system controlled by an iPod Touch. That seems to indicate that I need either a DAC that can connect to a Mac - or - a streamer/server (still not sure about what the difference is).

Gregg
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by Exiled Highlander
What an amazing outpouring of angst and gnashing of teeth over a product that is yet to be released and which most haven't seen or heard!

That said, Naim has not covered itself in glory in terms of how information has been released and user expectations managed.

Jim
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by Roy T
Many years ago when working with IBM they had a policy (for hardware?) of not discussing future releases of products unless covered by non-disclosure agreements. It helped to quiet the myriad of empty vessels who speculated upon speculation that in most cases had little or no input into IBM's products or their product release schedule.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by SC
I have no problem with non-disclosure and keeping tight lipped about products that are deep in the bowels of R&D, no problem whatsoever...(have you ever read about how Steve Jobs & Apple go about it - Amazing)...

But there's one big difference here - they are touring the blooding thing around the country, in public, and giving listening sessions !! Surely it's fair to judge said product and comment upon how it is being presented...?
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by Exiled Highlander
Roy

That would be a novel approach for the Hi-Fi market - sign this NDA or you can't come into the demo!

That would get attention for sure! Smile

SC

I have no problem with the speculation, I was simply commenting on the somewhat large mental leaps that taken place which even led to statements that it was nothing more than a glorified iPod dock!

Cheers

Jim
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by JYOW
quote:
Originally posted by Naijeru:
All this means the DAC is still pretty much a question mark.

Agree with that, we should not comment on rumors.

I hope the "demos" that Naim has been giving are just there to tease the natives and measure their reactions to crazy ideas.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by gone
I'm also a bit puzzled by the comments about lack of this, or inability to do that. IMO, I can't imagine the DAC to be much interest to those already with Naim CD-players, and it might marginally be useful to those buying new Naim CD-players, that just happen to have the digital out.
And I don't think anyone ever said it could be hooked up as a USB output device for a Mac or anything else. I'm not sure Naim should be so interested in that configuration, as it doesn't really fit with what they do, but I'm only second-guessing Naim strategy, and I don't think many of us would be privy to that.
But as an enhancement for the existing HDX, NSxx and any new 'streamers' that might be planned, it's an interesting product, and performs well, so far
Cheers
John
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by DHT
I was hoping for a Weiss dac but even better sounding, a dac with really good connectivity,firewire perhaps sampling rates all the way up to 192 , perhaps a slightly less fiddly volume control than the Weiss, a dac that could be used just as a (firwire) interface , if the 'touring' version of the Naim product is indeed the finished item,it has nothing to interest or excite me.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by Eloise
Personally my attraction to the DAC is not based on whether or not it has USB or FireWire connection. If anyone has read The Absolute Sound this month, they'll have seen (I'm sure) an article on USB connected DACs from Alan Taffel. Now without rehashing the debates that are ranging on other forums about the accuracy or otherwise of his information about availability of products, most people didn't question his assertion that the Bryston BDA-1; Audio Research DAC7 and Benchmark DAC-1 sound better if fed from a FireWire to SPDIF converter (he used a FocusRite Sapphire but the TC Konnect 8 would do just as well). Alternatively if you are using a desktop PC there are several studio PCI cards which will do a good job. Another factor to consider is the lack of 24/192 capability from most USB connected DACs, most don't even support 24/96 over USB and fail to mention that clearly in their spec.

Yes, an ASYNC USB or FireWire connection would have been good. But there are currently very few async USB implementations (Wavelength / Ayre and dCS) so Naim would have had to either license those, or employ specialist staff to create their own solution (no one chip solutions available); and FireWire is limited in that there are not generic drivers for devices so again either had to license technology, or employ programmers.

I suspect that Naim's thinking is also that if they provide a USB port, then they are going to have to start supporting computer problems as well, and they have neither the staff nor the inclination to do that. Okay, so having to buy a FireWire or PCI interface is adding a few hundred to the cost, but when people are prepared to spend that on a cable, is it really a limiting factor to whether someone buys a DAC? Possibly if Naim had included a USB connection they'd have increased the cost by £500 because of the extra development needed to make a good USB connection. Maybe you see it as "another black box getting in the way", but sometimes two boxes each doing what they do best, is preferable to integrating them and not getting the best.

Just my thoughts
Eloise

P.S. there have been some comments about the USB port and iPods: now whether or not this is how Naim have interfaced the iPod to the DAC, but it's my understanding it's possible to get streamed digital data via USB from an iPod as this is how some car head units access the iPod.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by Exiled Highlander
Eloise

You are barred from this forum as your post is far too sensible and unemotional.

Cheers

Jim
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by ryan_d
We still do not now if the dac will be able to handle 24/96 or 192k. And considering the release of the download music site I would hope so. I can't understand why Naim are willing to take this on tour but still not release any proper specifications regarding it. Just give us the details and let us make our own mind up.

I agree that if the sound is blinding then the interface with the source is a moot point. I would have liked the option though.

Ryan
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by goldfinch
quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:
Personally my attraction to the DAC is not based on whether or not it has USB or FireWire connection. If anyone has read The Absolute Sound this month, they'll have seen (I'm sure) an article on USB connected DACs from Alan Taffel. Now without rehashing the debates that are ranging on other forums about the accuracy or otherwise of his information about availability of products, most people didn't question his assertion that the Bryston BDA-1; Audio Research DAC7 and Benchmark DAC-1 sound better if fed from a FireWire to SPDIF converter (he used a FocusRite Sapphire but the TC Konnect 8 would do just as well). Alternatively if you are using a desktop PC there are several studio PCI cards which will do a good job.


Using a converter/audio device can be a good idea but this is another gear in the chain which influences performance. More cables and even more power supplies (some uses batteries). In summary, more decisions to take. TC, trends, Hagusb, BelCanto, M-audio, there are a lot of external converters, each one with its format restrictions and its jitter output. You can read a comparative here: http://www.positive-feedback.c...mblings_computer.htm

I prefer PCI cards just because of their simplicity but the best ones out there use AES/EBU so a converter would be again needed to connect them to the Naim DAC via SPDIF.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by David Dever
quote:
Yes, an ASYNC USB or FireWire connection would have been good. But there are currently very few async USB implementations (Wavelength / Ayre and dCS) so Naim would have had to either license those, or employ specialist staff to create their own solution (no one chip solutions available); and FireWire is limited in that there are not generic drivers for devices so again either had to license technology, or employ programmers.


Current versions of Mac OS X, as well as Windows Vista and Win7, provide direct support for IEC 61883-6 compliant FireWire audio client devices (using BridgeCo or Yamaha ASICs, for example), in isochronous mode. No additional drivers are required, as a generic client driver is provided.

On the other hand, support for TC DICE II-based devices utilizing IEC 61883-6 protocols requires installation of a device driver for Windows or OS X.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by David Dever
Another thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is the unique capabilities of the iPod touch as an audio source....

There are two things that make the iPhone (in whatever variant) a less-than-optimal source in the context of an iPod dock:

1. Made for iPhone devices must support appropriate features of the telephony side of the device

2. Induced noise from the GSM / 3G transceiver can be picked up within the sensitive gain circuits of a Naim preamplifier

The iPod touch does not possess these problems–what it does possess, however, is Wi-Fi, allowing it to handle Internet radio (various apps available), UPnP network streaming (via PlugPlayer), or local file playback (iPod functionality *).

Given a bit-transparent, mixer-bypassed Apple-authenticated digital bitstream transmitted across USB, it is possible to add Internet radio, UPnP streaming, etc. to the Naim DAC for merely the cost of an iPod touch (a $229 USB dongle, if you like), which can be sited at the end of a generic USB-to-dock connector cable.

So the notion of iPod dock functionality as a feature of the DAC extends its feature footprint into areas where the DAC itself would suffice as a standalone digital source.

Further, one could actually use an iPhone as a UPnP control point (again, via PlugPlayer) to control the stream sent to an iPod touch connected to the DAC.

* - While a standard iPod can still perform admirably for local file playback, it does not possess any network connectivity!
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by js
It's very easy to convert AES/EBU with a passive connector without adding noise or jitter. Here's a nice article on it with some DIY. http://www.rane.com/note149.htmlNotice the date. This is not new stuff.
or and There are others available. These are BNC terminated which is available on the DAC.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by goldfinch
That's great js!

I see the BCJ-XJ-A10TRA has 10db attenuation so it converts not only from 110 to 75 but also reduces the output volts, do you think this attenuation is safe enough for not damaging an spdif dig input in a DAC?