Naim DAC - part 2
Posted by: james n on 08 July 2009
Well i managed to slip out of work and i've seen the DAC myself now - i've been very interested given my front end is computer driven. I was quite lucky to get there early and so had the dem to myself. Unfortunately my dealer had laid on some live music. Just a girl and a guitar and she was superb and set a standard that the systems i would hear couldn't really compete with - i could have stayed and listened much longer but the DAC was calling...
Lets get the speakers out of the way first. Good looking and some very interesting design features. Sound, well the room wasn't ideal but i thought the Ovators had too much bass - almost like a badly adjusted sub. Mid and treble good though - very clean and detailed without harshness. This was driven via a 555/552/500 system.
Next up the new CDX2 with its switchable S/PDIF output. This sounded good, in fact i thought the Ovators bass was better on the end of the CDX2, mainly as the 555 goes so deep it wasn't doing the speakers any favours.
Onto the DAC - This is quite an assuming box as most have you have seen. Inputs are 4 Toslink, and 4 Coax - two of these are via BNC the other two RCA. Audio output is via DIN or RCA and there is the Burndy connector to allow PSU upgrades. USB connectors on the front and rear for an iPod or memory stick.
Internals - Jason explained that Jitter had been eliminated on the S/PDIF interface by clocking the data into memory and then clocking back out into another buffer which is synchronised to the internal clock - nothing very new there although i'll await the white paper with interest to see if Naim are doing something innovative with regards to jitter reduction.
The sound - well it was (to me) better than the CDX2 - voices had more presence more detail and the music flowed better. How good that it is i don't know - its better than the CDX2 but does that mean the DAC is a lot better or the standard CDX2 output stage isn't that hot. I'm sure that is not the case and for any CDX2 owners it'll be a decent upgrade with the option to add a PSU for further sonic pleasure.
The other thing the DAC does is that it'll play files from a memory stick and iPod. I'm a bit confused on the iPod side of things as the iPod is connected via the USB connector - Wadia connect to the Dock connector to take the raw digital data out of the iPod. As i see it (and i may be wrong), i'm not convinced that the DAC is 'doing a Wadia' - its just playing files from the iPod with the DAC providing 'transport' controls as i'm sure the USB interface wouldnt support raw data unless its in a proprietary format and the DAC is doing something else with it.
I was dissapointed to see no computer driving the DAC as with perfect jitter reduction it shouldnt really make a difference - Jason explained that the transports would sound different - but at this point i'm not too convinced. We then got onto computer ripping but again my own findings are different.
So is the DAC for me ? - well probably not. I'm not convinced by a fancy S/PDIF interface as being a good option for computer audio. The iPod connectivity is probably useful but seems a bit of an afterthought. I'd also need to hear it in my own system - the room, system and music was unfamiliar so no point of reference for me. As a digital hub in an all Naim system and an upgrade to HDX/CDX etc i'm sure it'll be a winner.
James
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by gone
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
There are two things that make the iPhone (in whatever variant) a less-than-optimal source in the context of an iPod dock:
1. Made for iPhone devices must support appropriate features of the telephony side of the device
2. Induced noise from the GSM / 3G transceiver can be picked up within the sensitive gain circuits of a Naim preamplifier
David - surely the iPhone in Flight Mode will solve the problem of interference, and it has WiFi anyway? I understood that in iPod mode, it behaves in the same way as an iPod, so the downstream device only needs to be 'Made for iPod'?
All the uPnP stuff should still work
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by goldfinch:
That's great js!
I see the BCJ-XJ-A10TRA has 10db attenuation so it converts not only from 110 to 75 but also reduces the output volts, do you think this attenuation is safe enough for not damaging an spdif dig input in a DAC?
No problem as a modern standard SPdif should be tolerant to over 1v and perhaps the BNC inputs are to aes single ended 1v standard anyway. I don't know if that's the case but the v spec isn't that tight on inputs as interfacing is always going to be somewhat of an unknown. Like the DIY shows, a Xformer isn't required to go from AES/EBU to SPdif and can be done with resistors. Going the other way should use a Xformer. I haven't tried the resistor method but like the idea. I do know the spdif to aes input Xformer does work well but haven't needed to use an output conversion yet.
If anyone here is using a SPdif into an AES/EBU by just wiring the plugs to fit. This does not give the best results and you should be using a Xformer for the balanced 110ohm 7.5V AES/EBU input or just using the SPdif in. If you like it better that way, you're compensating for something else.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by rupert bear
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
I already own a CDS3/555PS however I am not looking to spend even more money ....
Gregg
Gregg,
Having heard the CDS3/555PS directly against the HDX/DAC on the roadshow, I wouldn't get too bothered if I were you.
CDS3 sounded a very complete performance.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
is the new Naim DAC really only worthwhile on a 282/HC/250 level kit?
??? (Who said that?)
But I have to say, the NAIT XS(-2) would be a fine match to the DAC–
really happy with the performance of the current wave of new stuff, at the entry level and above.
Did you end up with a PSC?
Dave,
You did with the comment about a $500 computer into a $3500 DAC into a $10K kit, and why would someone want to do that.
I was asking if my kit only being valued at $3000 or so, changes the equation in terms of the worth of a PC serving the DAC directly.
I bet the XS is amazing. I haven't heard it yet though. If it is anything close to a SN, I would surely love one.
The real question is....
Let us pretend that I had an XS and the new DAC, how would I be best served to get the Data from my PC and into the DAC if not USB?
And yes I got a NAPSC last summer. Great VFM. Hicap is next, along with a new DAC. The Beresford is holding things back. I also need a service on my 180 and I suppose that should be first on the list...
Thanks,
patrick
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by AS332
So this year's Summer Sounds introduces a product that improves a product introduced at last year Summer Sounds ?
Maybe wait for next year for the improved upgrade to the DAC .
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
I already own a CDS3/555PS
I want to be able to rip my CD's and have the convenience of playing them back through my system controlled by an iPod Touch.
Glevethan,
This is an easy one... the HDX. You could recycle the 555PS, the sale of the CDS3 would lessen the blow some.
If you haven't heard the HDX you must. Awesome.
At your "level" and budget, the need to rip, and a desire for a great player, the HDX is a no brainer. At some point down the road you could add an external DAC (not necessarily Naims) if you thought it improved it.
-p
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:
I suspect that Naim's thinking is also that if they provide a USB port, then they are going to have to start supporting computer problems as well, and they have neither the staff nor the inclination to do that.
Hmmm seems like it is exactly their inclination. The Naimnet products, the HDX and Uniti are basically computers, and certainly depend on them. In the case of the HDX, it has a version of Windows and hard drives, even a screen. Someone unfamiliar with Hifi would take one look at the back of an HDX or Uniti and assume it was actually a computer of some kind.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by DHT
I wasn't particularly impressed with the sound of the HDX, I would consider a macbook or mac mini, and external dac.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by Nero:
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
There are two things that make the iPhone (in whatever variant) a less-than-optimal source in the context of an iPod dock:
1. Made for iPhone devices must support appropriate features of the telephony side of the device
2. Induced noise from the GSM / 3G transceiver can be picked up within the sensitive gain circuits of a Naim preamplifier
David - surely the iPhone in Flight Mode will solve the problem of interference, and it has WiFi anyway? I understood that in iPod mode, it behaves in the same way as an iPod, so the downstream device only needs to be 'Made for iPod'?
All the uPnP stuff should still work
Airplane mode doesn't resolve the Made for iPod / Made for iPhone accessory compatibility issue, in spite of the fact that, by turning on Airplane mode (and subsequently turning Wi-Fi on), you should be able to eliminate the extra interference from GSM / 3G.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:
Okay, so having to buy a FireWire or PCI interface is adding a few hundred to the cost, but when people are prepared to spend that on a cable, is it really a limiting factor to whether someone buys a DAC?
The crux of the biscuit here is what PCI card, or what converter? Are they are created equally? Do some work (sound) better than others? Are they all bit perfect? Is jitter a factor? I dont mind the extra dollars. But I do mind the extra variables.
I can see the threads now..... Arguments about the TC vs some Soundblaster card. The m-Audio transit versus a Juli card. An M-audio versus the Hager. and on and on. Then there's ASIO and DS and drivers, and add-ons, components and cables. Then there will be streaming versus hardwired with all of its included variables, compounding the above even further.
Putting USB (or Firewire) connectivity on the DAC would eliminate all of that crap. I guarantee that DA will look even more like a computer forum in the coming months.
With a Naim CDP, the box handles all activities and leaves us the one option (save the powerline) of chosing an interconnect. Just that one variable is enough to spark demos and debates and many threads on which Chord is best, is it better than the Hiline.
Imagine what the discussion will be like when you consider the countless variables involved in getting your music from a computer and into the DAC.
- Method of output (ASIO, DS etc)
- Media player
- Soundcard
- Converter
- Types of digi cables (please)
- Toslink vs Spdif vs I2S vs AES/EUB vs Me Vomiting
- Streamer
Sample future Thread:
"oh you are are using Foobar with ASIO into a Lynx soundcard, into some DIY AES/EBU convertors into a Chord Optichord Toslink, then into your DAC? You would be much better served trying Brand X converters. And I found that the Lynx totally screws with the timing."
"You are crazy to use that Jitter factory of a soundcard. Stream the data wirelessly, but NOT with the Apple TV"
"Weird... I simply plug the USB into my Wavelength and forget about the rest of it."
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
Given a bit-transparent, mixer-bypassed Apple-authenticated digital bitstream transmitted across USB,
Dave,
Why are the huge limitations, and bad SQ of USB only applicable to the DAC? You stated above that USB is a bad choice and is for "plebs" I think you said. How is the "constant connection via powered USB" acceptable for the iPod? Why is it not suspect the same shortcomings? And if there are so many better ways to connect than USB why are there 2 USB ports on the DAC, and the other Naim products as well?
Curious,
Patrick
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by DHT:
I wasn't particularly impressed with the sound of the HDX, I would consider a macbook or mac mini, and external dac.
Then why even consider the Naim DAC?
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by js
Even with USB and Firewire DACs, the same ASIO and player discussions come up. Nothing has changed except for adding an interface and it's been pretty much settled here that there are 2 very good ones to choose from. One inboard and one outboard. If you've chosen a computer to source your sound, you've already opened this can of worms. It wasn't Naim's doing or their need to supply a sound card. It's a DAC that can work with a computer, not made for it. They were nice enough to give us a way to control it remotely and play a local file quickly if wanted but it's reason to be here is to sound better a hopefully they've accomplished that. The rest will fall into place.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
Gregg,
Having heard the CDS3/555PS directly against the HDX/DAC on the roadshow, I wouldn't get too bothered if I were you.
CDS3 sounded a very complete performance.
I am in agreement with you Rupert. I have had the chance to demo the HDX several times, both bare and a PS. I am not worried at all - the bare HDX is like a CDX2 - with a PS it still cannot hold a candle to a CDS3/555PS - not even close.
Gregg
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
I already own a CDS3/555PS
I want to be able to rip my CD's and have the convenience of playing them back through my system controlled by an iPod Touch.
Glevethan,
This is an easy one... the HDX. You could recycle the 555PS, the sale of the CDS3 would lessen the blow some.
If you haven't heard the HDX you must. Awesome.
At your "level" and budget, the need to rip, and a desire for a great player, the HDX is a no brainer. At some point down the road you could add an external DAC (not necessarily Naims) if you thought it improved it.
-p
PC
See my post above. I have done the HDX demo several times - not even in the same ball park (as they say on this side of the pond) as the CDS3. If I want to ditch the CDS3 (which I do not) I would go the Linn Klimax DS route - now there is a demo YOU should try to do. It looks like Naim does not have anything planned for me (in the near future) to play files off of a HD or computer.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by glevethan
quote:
Originally posted by js:
It's a DAC that can work with a computer, not made for it. They were nice enough to give us a way to control it remotely
Can you please explain further - how can it work with the computer? It appears that it cannot play files off of a hard drive. Can it connect to a computer - if so how (USB has been shot down here for quality reasons)? It might be able to connect to my (retrofitted) CDS3 but how does that give me a way to play computer files controlled by an iPod Touch?
Thanks in advance
Gregg
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
quote:
Originally posted by js:
It's a DAC that can work with a computer, not made for it. They were nice enough to give us a way to control it remotely
Can you please explain further - how can it work with the computer? It appears that it cannot play files off of a hard drive. Can it connect to a computer - if so how (USB has been shot down here for quality reasons)? It might be able to connect to my (retrofitted) CDS3 but how does that give me a way to play computer files controlled by an iPod Touch?
Thanks in advance
Gregg
Via WiFI and an Ipod with a plugin(s) apparently but you'll need to ask Dave how that works. I understand that this will work for MAC or PC.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by gary1 (US)
Gregg,
I think that the DAC can be used with a computer but that you do not connect via a USB connection. I believe that is why the comment that the DAC can be "used WITH a computer", but was not made for a computer.
The connection from the PC/MAC neds to be done Directly via the computers sound card output socket which typically is spdif or AES/EBU or INDIRECTLY by using an intermediary such as a TC Konnect which has spdif and firewire connections. You then go into the spdif port on the Naim DAC or you use an adapter to plug into the BNC ports.
Obviously it would have helped had Naim set up a demo as done earlier at the Bristol show with the Mac/DAC so that people would see how exactly connections can be made.
I think they want to introduce the DAC and a centerpiece of versatility and upgradeablility and not just as a source between the computer and your pre-amp. Those who are interested in a DAC purely for the computer/dac solution can audition at a dealer after the product is released. Maybe after all of these questions they will show the computer/DAC at a summer show, but my impression as to why they are not trumpeting this a primarily a computer solution is the perception that it is a one trick pony as opposed to a hub or upgrade option for a number of their products.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by glevethan
JS
Thanks for the reply. Considering that WIFI has been universally derided on this forum (and I imagine correctly so) it appears that this device will not be a "traditional" DAC as many of us had hoped for. Maybe all was not lost during the "waiting for Godot" as it seems that DAC's have recently turned into the "flavor of the month club". While the Lavry was popular several months ago it appears (based on postings) that the Weiss is the new and upcoming flavor.
Have you had the chance to audition it (Weiss)?
Finally one last comment. As a long time Mac user (and "somewhat" tech support person for friends and family) recent developments have seen some question the long term viability of Firewire and Mac computers. The Firewire port was recently removed on one machine - only to reappear on the next incarnation. Firewire 400 is dead and is replaced by Firewire 800. What interface do the Firewire Dac's use - me thinks 400. It is possible to use 400 devices with an adapter for the 800 port however might not the adapter add problems for us in Audiophile land? Recent speculation have seen some prognosticate that the next round of Apple upgrades will push Apple to the forefront once again with an early adoption of USB 3.0. What that holds for the disappearance-appearance come and go of Firewire ports on recent Macs is anyones guess.
Thanks
Gregg
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by Klout10
The title of this threat should be: Naim DACs" as there will be 3 of them.
Strangely I haven't heard anybody about this matter yet...
Regards,
Michel
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:
JS
Thanks for the reply. Considering that WIFI has been universally derided on this forum (and I imagine correctly so) it appears that this device will not be a "traditional" DAC as many of us had hoped for. Maybe all was not lost during the "waiting for Godot" as it seems that DAC's have recently turned into the "flavor of the month club". While the Lavry was popular several months ago it appears (based on postings) that the Weiss is the new and upcoming flavor.
Have you had the chance to audition it (Weiss)?
Finally one last comment. As a long time Mac user (and "somewhat" tech support person for friends and family) recent developments have seen some question the long term viability of Firewire and Mac computers. The Firewire port was recently removed on one machine - only to reappear on the next incarnation. Firewire 400 is dead and is replaced by Firewire 800. What interface do the Firewire Dac's use - me thinks 400. It is possible to use 400 devices with an adapter for the 800 port however might not the adapter add problems for us in Audiophile land? Recent speculation have seen some prognosticate that the next round of Apple upgrades will push Apple to the forefront once again with an early adoption of USB 3.0. What that holds for the disappearance-appearance come and go of Firewire ports on recent Macs is anyones guess.
Thanks
Gregg
We'll have to wait and see how much WiFi is an issue with this DAC. I thought it slightly worse in the past but it is bit perfect so clocking etc. will have a lot to do with whether that's the case here. I guess what matters is, if used this way, does it sounds better overall than what you're doing now and only time will tell. Firewire 800 is fully backward compatible with 400 and only needs a special cable or adapter.
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by pcstockton
I ask again...
Can anyone suggest a decent soundcard that would be suitable with the Naim DAC?
Is the TC device the only decent non-card option?
thanks in advance,
p
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by james n
quote:
While the Lavry was popular several months ago it appears (based on postings) that the Weiss is the new and upcoming flavor.
Not really - the Weiss gets rid of the main weakness in the Mac - the toslink SPDIF interface and sounds very good too.
James
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by u5227470736789439
I am looking at this, but certainly do not know the answer.
On the other hand, it has been my experience that the differences between two good didgital replay systems of radically different cost are far less than the differences between two [so called] good vinyl replay sets, of similarly different costs, can be.
You can get respectable vinyl replay for a few hundred pounds with a Rega P3, and something nearly as good as digital if you are prepared to spend perhaps ten thousand pounds.
You can get respectable didgital replay for something about twice the cost of the Rega P3, whether it is be PC [or MAC] based [with a DAC] or CD player based. If one spends the equivalent of a very expensive vinyl playing turntable on digital you get something that is at the best only marginally finer than the digital set costing perhaps twice the Rega P3 TT.
The law of diminishing return bites very much lowerr in the cost structure with digital, and I am inclined to think that many of the so called "significant" improvements between different digital solutions [some of which I have found entirely inaudible and also musically insignificant], even if I can actually detect them, often seem like shades of presentational style as much as anyhting that is without argument actually definitively better. You can get top vinyl replay beating performance from relatively very modest expenditure in the digital domain.
As usual these shades of presentational difference require an audition to be made of any potential system.
The fact is likely to remain that you can never be quite sure that what you have is actually the best - or at least what you would like the best - but I am also inclined to the view that this does not matter much, provided you enjoy the musical results of what you do have,
The differences above a certain minimum and surprisingly affordable level of quality certainly do not justify, IMHO, the gnashing of teeth that seems all too common-place here!
Get some music, get listening, and stop worrying.
Digital is great and it also serves to remove old divide between those who could afford ten or twenty times the expense for the very best in the analogue world.
Digital allows even quite modest expenditure to obtain replay that is arguably technically indistinguishable in so many cases, and is even more importantly every bit as enjoyable in the musical sense, as the most expensive and sophisticated digital replay solutions.
ATB from George
Posted on: 09 July 2009 by DHT
George Hi, I completely agree, mac mini £500 dac of choice Lavry £700 or even Weiss £1800 and you have a first rate digital source, oh forgot ipod touch £165! H.
