Mick's bins. Revisited.

I bought the Leica 10 x 25's and they are brilliant. The main advantage is that you carry them all the time because they are so small.

I attended a Leica photography course last June at their HQ in Milton Keynes and I had the opportunity to try out every binocular in the range.

My conclusions were that the 10 x 25's are the most practical because you can carry them in a small inconspicuous belt pocket, so no regrets there.

The 10 x 32's were also good but just a tiny bit too big to carry around without noticing them.

All the other sizes were frankly to cumbersome to be practical. They would be fine for carrying in the car but not for walking around with.

The 10 x 25 will surprise you just how good they are. The clarity is breath taking. I viewed some monkey's from my lodge whilst in South Africa on the other side of a valley and you could see every strand of their fur at about 200 yards, and this was at dusk.

Count'd is also an enthusiast.

Regards

Mick

[This message was edited by Mick Parry on SUNDAY 01 February 2004 at 11:19.]

'No regrets' is what I like to hear. Thanks Mick.
We're only allowed 12kg each, including hand baggage, so lighter is better for us.

Thanks again,

Tony

Curious about the binos. Quite fancy splurging some cash on a nice pair of binos, but need some that are lightweight, optically great and can be used with eyeglasses (the normal Achilles heel of binos for me).

Are the Leicas that much better than (say) the Zeiss, Swarovskis, Nikons and the like? I've never owned a Leica (other than a Pradovit 150 projector for around a fortnight) and though a friend has an M6 which I've used on a few occasions and liked, I've never really bought into that Leica thing.

That said, I may spend some time this summer whale-watching, and good Binos would be useful. They'd have to be small enough to fit in along with my Mamiya rangefinder outfit's photo rucksack, which also has to accommodate 4 lenses and an Arca Swiss B1.

John

I suppose to be 100% sure, you need to "dem" etc.

The Lieca's score by letting in more light which gives it two main advantages.

1. Clarity almost breathtaking.

2. Good for low light viewing.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by Top Cat:
Curious about the binos. Quite fancy splurging some cash on a nice pair of binos, but need some that are lightweight, optically great and can be used with eyeglasses (the normal Achilles heel of binos for me).

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I use little 8x22 Canon ones for hillwalking and other outdoor stuff and I've found them pretty good. Light, compact, rugged and fine with glasses.

Regards
Steve

yes the leicas really are that good.

I've often been about to buy a pair of Nikons, and then made the mistake of a final trial against the Leicas - wow. Cocaine for the eyes - they are stunning.

Subsequently I have not yet bought a pair of binos, and instead step closer week by week to the "body of a greek god" ideal by merely eliminating the need for expensive optics by walking closer to that which I want to see. Ship-spotting presents some challenge, I will be working on the water-walking next week.

HTH

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Hi folks.

Next week is bonus week. I'm not planning any hifi purchases but am sorely tempted to get a pair of decent binos, and I was taking everyone's advice re: the Leicas but the price is scaring me a little.

I looked at Mick's binos - the 10x25s - and though I don't want huge binos, I'm prepared to look at slightly bigger ones than that. Thing is, I'm a complete bino newbie, and I don't really know what improvements to expect by moving up from smaller binos.

My biggest concerns are:

• durability - if I'm going to spend big bucks on a pair of binos I want to be passing them onto my grandkids in forty years' time
  
• clarity - I assume there'll be no disappointments here!
  
• comfort - especially when wearing glasses. I wear glasses and have no plans for contact lenses or corrective laser eye-surgery, so any binos have to work well with glasses - will this be the case with the Leicas?

My budget was £300 but I'm prepared to up this if the extra is going to be money well spent. I've just sold one of my lenses from my beloved M7 outfit (the 43/4.5L with external VF) which means that I have toy money to play with without feelings of guilt! SO, if an extra £100 or even £200 makes all the difference then I can stretch that far.

What about other options? My aims for the binos are mainly recreational, though as I spend a fair bit of my summer sailing I want binos that will stand up to a certain amount of exposure to salt air, sun and the occasional bit of seawater spray.

The ones I like the look of most are the 10x32 BN Trinovid bins, and whilst they're over my max budget I'm in no rush and the fact they're watertight to 5m would be a very good thing for my sailing.

Has anyone got a pair of Trinovid bins, and would they buy the model they bought again or something else?

Thanks,

John

I had quite a bit of use of Leica binoculars when I attended their photography course last year.

The 10 x 32's are good but the 10 x 25's are much more useable due to being lighter to carry around.

I know that you are suffering from a feeling of " I am stuck with it once I have bought it" as I was.

Count'd strongly advised buying the 10x25's and I went for it. I must admit that I was a bit worried when I saw how small they were but the reality is that they are immensley practical to use and the optics are outstanding.

Even though the 10x32's are still small, they are cumbersome compared to the 10x25's.

whatever you do, do not go above 10 x 32 as anything bigger is a total pain to lug around and you will never use it.

Finally to answer you question, I would still buy the 10x25's if I had to do it all over again.

Regards

Mick

I'm also on the bins trail (birds).
Leica make quite a few ranges, which range would you advise? Are yours Trinovid BC?
Can anyone recommend a specialist bino shop in London or Kent?
thanks

[This message was edited by Rockingdoc on Tue 16 March 2004 at 10:37.]

Hi all,

as a Leica owner ( 8X32BA ), i am sure that these bins are among the very best, but there are serious competitors. The Swarovskis, Nikon HGs ( in the U.S.A. : Nikon Venturer ) or the top Zeiss models will perform at least as good. IMO the compacts like the Leica 10X25 are too small for comfortable use, as you must hold them with your fingertips, and the image is darker when light conditions are bad. Look at www.betterviewdesired.comfor advice.

Best wishes,

Manfred

Update...

I took some time out to go and try some different binos out at a local and knowledgable shop. The Leicas are, as mentioned above, fabulous, though I didn't get a chance to try my preferred 8x32s (tried a 10x32 instead).

That said, my favourite bino that I tried was the Swarovski EL 8x32, which is *stunning* - even compared to the Leicas. It's also a little more expensive - eek. Though I did feel they were very comfortable and exceeded the quality I thought possible.

I'm tempted by the Swarovskis but to be frank the Leicas were very good too. The EL 8x32 definitely outclassed the Leicas but I reckon either would do for me.

So, now I'm trying to find out just how much I will have to pay for the ELs, and unless I can get them a couple of hundred cheaper than that shop, I'll probably go for the Leicas.

Mick, though you recommend the 10x25 Leicas, I am very tempted by the slightly bigger binos as they're waterproof and more rugged.

John

a pair of new Swarowski EL 8x32s went on E-Bay last week for 440 GBP. I didn't go for them as the seller had no history, and I only saw them with minutes to go.

You said.."Mick, though you recommend the 10x25 Leicas, I am very tempted by the slightly bigger binos as they're waterproof and more rugged."

There are pluses and minuses to each.

The 10x25 is rugged but not waterproof. It is much more "carryable" which you will appreciate later on. It is also less prone to hand shake.

The 10x32 is slightly more useable in low light and is filled with nitrogen and hence totally waterproof. It does cost a lot more.

I would regard the 10x32 as the largest size to carry around for any distance or time.

I have used both and opted for the 10x25 because of the fact that I will carry them more and hence use them more.

Both are a good choice.

If your heart is set on the 32 size, perhaps you should consider an older model. They look similar to the current 10x25 but are larger. Their main advantage is that they are lighter than the current model and therefore you will carry them more. Also they will be less prone to shake after prolonged use. They usually come in 8x32 format.

Most of them have been cossetted and are still in mint condition. They usually fetch about £350.00 on ebay.

Regards

Mick

Top Cat,

Do you not think you may be going a little over the top with your choice?

It is easy to get carried away reading reviews and catalogues. The binoculas you are contemplating are for serious bird watching and not general use.

When testing the binoculas, it takes a while to find the exact dioptre adjustment which suits your eyes. You will need to spend some time with each one (not ten minutes).

I find the focusing mechanism is a major factor in binocular quality. I find it frustrating if it sticks in the slightest.

I think you should think about what you will realistically using them for. I have the Leica 8x20 and Mick has the 10x25, and we both find the practicality far more important than seeing more detail in shadow areas at dusk. The difference in quality is minimal.

When you state that Swarovski was stunning compared to Leica, with all due respect, what were you comparing? Resolution is a hard thing to compare, contrast, brightness, contrast between highlight/shadow, edge definition, colour fringing, smooth focusing???

As far as durability is concerned for handing down to a generation, my Leica at £280 has a 30 year guarantee and filled with Nitrogen.

Hi Count (what's yer real name so I can call you by it, btw?)...

Agreed, the ELs are just too OTT for my uses. That said, I sail a '65 Enterprise and need something that I can keep in the boat for summer cruising on the sea. Whilst the smaller bins are very, very tempting, it is not unheard of for me to capsize which can mean bino immersion. I'm no birder but my wife and I are big wildlife people who plan to do a 'sea otter' holiday this year, and again I want something that will be okay should it end up dunked in a rockpool.

I'm closing on a s/h pair of Leicas at the moment - half the price of the Swarovskis and 90% as good. My assessment of the ELs was based solely on late afternoon use - looking up the street from the shop and over to the castle, and indoors within the shop. The Leicas were great - beyond expectations - but the ELs were just that bit crisper, contrastier and had brighter colour. Subjective, I know, but then that's how I perceived them.

The little 10x25 is too much 'reach' for my liking, and the shop didn't have an 8x25 to try (but I believe one exists). The 10x32s felt good but a bit too zoomy for me. Therefore, I think the 8x32 is the best compromise.

John

So typical of the naim forum - the willingness to spend small fortunes for minute increases in performance and a spec. fetish: "nitrogen filled" - why? (and they won't be after 30 years or anything approaching that); waterproof to 5 metres - who uses binoculars underwater?

Or is it the posing opportunities?

cheers

Nigel

quote:

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Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
So typical of the naim forum - the willingness to spend small fortunes for minute increases in performance
Nigel

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That's the fascination of the forum. No sane person would look at it twice (except for research )

quote:

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waterproof to 5 metres - who uses binoculars underwater?

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Ah, Nigel, Nigel, Nigel my son... I've no intention to use them underwater, just to be able to know that when I'm next in the drink with binos in my life-saver, I have peace of mind that they won't leak and/or be ruined. Is that so much to ask...

No posing opportunities with binoculars - they're all sad.

£280 is not a small fortune - it's a small amount these days. Sure, I baulk at £800 but £280 is palatable, and the 8x32s are £600 new (I'm working on £380 s/h) which isn't so bad...

John

quote:

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So typical of the naim forum - the willingness to spend small fortunes for minute increases in performance and a spec. fetish: "nitrogen filled" - why? (and they won't be after 30 years or anything approaching that); waterproof to 5 metres - who uses binoculars underwater?

Or is it the posing opportunities?

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Once you get to Leica at £280 instead of £150 for Minolta, there is a big difference.

Nitrogen is not a fetish, it stops internal fogging and also stops the scourge of all optics in the long term, fungus growth. I wish camera lenses would have this. They are guaranteed for 30 years, so if they fog up, take them back. It's not difficult to seal gas in by the way.

Waterproof to 5m is a standard measurement to inicate that the product can withstand a certain amount of moisture ingression. Not to be taken literally and I don't imagine Top Cat going under water with them.

Posing opportunities? No one has ever seen me with mine and I don't feel superior with them in my pocket.

I hope this answers your most basic questions.

Top Cat,

Personally I wouldn't dream of buying secondhand.

Do have a second look at the small bins, once the novelty of owning higher spec ones has passed, you may be grateful for the tiny ones you take every where in your pocket.

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I don't imagine Top Cat going under water with them.

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Afraid it's a requirement - the possibility of capsize during a gybe in heavy weather is very real and if there's a chance of going in then there's a chance of submersion - which is why I'm not looking at the cheaper, more portable and otherwise ideal 10x25s. I wish I could, but AFAIK they aren't waterproof.

quote:

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Do have a second look at the small bins, once the novelty of owning higher spec ones has passed, you may be grateful for the tiny ones you take every where in your pocket.

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Very true, I know what you're saying makes sense but the reality is that I need something that can withstand my sailing and occasional (ahem) dips. Of course, one possibility is a waterproof housing for smaller bins, but there would always be the possibility of me forgetting to place said bins in housing before going for my regular dunk.

So, the 8x32s seem to be still the contender, though if someone makes a rugged, waterproof, compact porro I'd be very interested.

I want to order my bins this week in time for the weekend - any final thoughts before I swallow the bitter pill of Leica ownership...???

John

quote:

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Originally posted by Top Cat:
I'm no birder but my wife and I are big wildlife people who plan to do a 'sea otter' holiday this year

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The only time I've seen one in the wild was from the Gigha ferry.

quote:

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Originally posted by Top Cat:
So, the 8x32s seem to be still the contender, though if someone makes a rugged, waterproof, compact porro I'd be very interested.

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Canon do a couple of waterproof compact options:

8x32 WP

8x23 AWP

The waterproofing is limited though - they quote up to 1m depth for a maximum of two minutes. That will be fine for splashes and drops in rock pools but I'm not sure about getting dunked while sailing - how fast can you get back in the boat?

quote:

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how fast can you get back in the boat?

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Depends where I ended up. If I'm on my own it could take a couple of minutes depending on the wind and tide. If I've got a crew (much much more likely) it's a question of whether I am the guy on the centreboard or being 'scooped' (if you've ever been there you'll know what I mean).

Much as I like the look of the Canons, if I come off the boat at full tilt I could be a bit deeper than 1m for a second or so, but not as deep as 5m. Thing is, I don't want to have to worry about the bins should I end up in the drink, as the first priority is getting back on the boat, and the second will be bailing it out

John

PS. Never actually seen Otters in the wild - it's something T. wants to do, and I guess good glass might come in handy!

Well, I went for the 8x32 BN. I know you guys recommended the smaller 10x25 but it just wasn't going to work for the ruggedness and waterproofing I require. I got the bins yesterday, ex-demo ones in mint condition, and they are quite simply stunning. The ELs probably would have been better still in practise, but they were 50% more expensive and crossed the line of what I was prepared to pay.

Can't fault the 8x32s. As someone said further up, "Cocaine for the eyes". Indeed.

John

Well, a year or so later I've bought the Ultravid 10x25 BR. Oh my word, they are fantastic. In Zambia last year I tried out a larger pair of Leicas that I'd have thought were better suited to birding but was still awestruck by the clarity of the glass. The memory came back when I looked through the 10x25 Ultravids.
I did try the 10x32 versions in the shop, but with less than a week before we go to Tanzania that was asking too much of the bank account!
I also tried out a pair of Canon bins with image stab. and L series glass. I thought the Leicas were clearer, even though the Canon was £1400 or so!

Tony