Is there a conflict in Naim?
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 13 January 2003
I’m listening to Naim about 10 years from now and I know quite well the SBL, IBL and I’d listened to DBL.
Since 1992 when I bought the Nait2, I listened at my home to speakers of AR, Linn, Regga, Shahinian and a Rell Sub.
I have a friend with a Naim system and Credos and I’d listened to Intro and Intro2 in Naim’s dealer here in Haifa.
I listened yesterday to Triangle and Celestion.
It is clear that when you give Naim’s amps the possibility, they are going very low – but you can find it only with other speakers but Naim (not including the DBL).
It seems to me like the people in Naim who are building the sources and amps are thinking that these products must go low, and the people in Naim who are building the speakers are thinking that the lows are not a critical feature.
What do you think about this impression of mine?
Arye
Since 1992 when I bought the Nait2, I listened at my home to speakers of AR, Linn, Regga, Shahinian and a Rell Sub.
I have a friend with a Naim system and Credos and I’d listened to Intro and Intro2 in Naim’s dealer here in Haifa.
I listened yesterday to Triangle and Celestion.
It is clear that when you give Naim’s amps the possibility, they are going very low – but you can find it only with other speakers but Naim (not including the DBL).
It seems to me like the people in Naim who are building the sources and amps are thinking that these products must go low, and the people in Naim who are building the speakers are thinking that the lows are not a critical feature.
What do you think about this impression of mine?
Arye
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Arye_Gur
Paul,
It is clear to me, from what I listened to yesterday, that the IBL is a better speaker than the Triangle although the second goes much lower. My brother in law, who is not a fan of Naim like me (but he may be soon…) got the same impression. While listening to the IBL he decided that he gives the Triangle back to its dealer.
I don’t have the exact names – but it is quite a common thought (at least I hear it a lot here) that there are better speakers for Naim because of this reason.
I’m not a good example – because no matter what I write here, I’m a great fan of Naim and I’m a great believer with Naim abilities – (if you knew Hebrew I could bring you the Israeli forum about stereo, members there identify me completely with Naim - and I made the name NAIM familiare there) and I do believe that Naim think that a speaker like the Intro for example, can’t go lower in this level of price without loosing some qualities, but there are many people who don’t think this way.
I also think that this question appeared several times in this forum too – but you (Naim) like to ignore it.
Arye
It is clear to me, from what I listened to yesterday, that the IBL is a better speaker than the Triangle although the second goes much lower. My brother in law, who is not a fan of Naim like me (but he may be soon…) got the same impression. While listening to the IBL he decided that he gives the Triangle back to its dealer.
I don’t have the exact names – but it is quite a common thought (at least I hear it a lot here) that there are better speakers for Naim because of this reason.
I’m not a good example – because no matter what I write here, I’m a great fan of Naim and I’m a great believer with Naim abilities – (if you knew Hebrew I could bring you the Israeli forum about stereo, members there identify me completely with Naim - and I made the name NAIM familiare there) and I do believe that Naim think that a speaker like the Intro for example, can’t go lower in this level of price without loosing some qualities, but there are many people who don’t think this way.
I also think that this question appeared several times in this forum too – but you (Naim) like to ignore it.
Arye
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Naheed
I originally (10+ yrs ago) got hooked on naim, as I'd demo'd so many systems that just couldn't do 'real' bass.
What do I mean by bass I hear you ask.
Well for many bass is a room/floorboard shaking affair, to others to a deep dull thud, to others a springy soft bounce, and to others (me) its what Paul is taking about, bass with speed/articulation and detail/rhythm, being able to hear to different strands of the bassline gel with the rest of the tune - to give the whole PRaT thing that the guys/dolls at Naim are just SOooo good at...
So many systems I've heard, where so much detail is lost, due to mans quest for more 'fat' bass.
naheed...
What do I mean by bass I hear you ask.
Well for many bass is a room/floorboard shaking affair, to others to a deep dull thud, to others a springy soft bounce, and to others (me) its what Paul is taking about, bass with speed/articulation and detail/rhythm, being able to hear to different strands of the bassline gel with the rest of the tune - to give the whole PRaT thing that the guys/dolls at Naim are just SOooo good at...
So many systems I've heard, where so much detail is lost, due to mans quest for more 'fat' bass.
naheed...
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
Arye,
I'd agree with you to a certain extent.
I heard a pair of Allaes recently I thought that they had no bass worth speaking of.
Still, I also thought that about a pair of Linn Ninkas that I listened to in the last month, so it's not just an issue with Naim gear.
Note, that my home system does use a pair of Linn Kabers and an REL sub.
In response to the post from Naheed, I'd agree that bass should have speed and timing. However, the bass must EXIST before it can have any values, something that some speakers seem incapable of creating.
I'd agree with you to a certain extent.
I heard a pair of Allaes recently I thought that they had no bass worth speaking of.
Still, I also thought that about a pair of Linn Ninkas that I listened to in the last month, so it's not just an issue with Naim gear.
Note, that my home system does use a pair of Linn Kabers and an REL sub.
In response to the post from Naheed, I'd agree that bass should have speed and timing. However, the bass must EXIST before it can have any values, something that some speakers seem incapable of creating.
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Noel
Naheed,
I use SBL's which are fantastic, however I wish they would go deeper. I love the way Naim speakers reproduce bass, but I wish I could get more out of the SBLs. The limiting factors are driver and cabinet size. For such a small speaker they're excellent. There's no way I could afford NBL or DBL.(My house is too small anyway!) But when people say they want more bass please don't assume they want more of the same frequencies(Fat bloated bass), some of us want more depth.
I use SBL's which are fantastic, however I wish they would go deeper. I love the way Naim speakers reproduce bass, but I wish I could get more out of the SBLs. The limiting factors are driver and cabinet size. For such a small speaker they're excellent. There's no way I could afford NBL or DBL.(My house is too small anyway!) But when people say they want more bass please don't assume they want more of the same frequencies(Fat bloated bass), some of us want more depth.
Posted on: 14 January 2003 by Naheed
I use SBLs, and agree they don't provide large scale bass (but that's not what I'm after).
I did find a combination of the 250s and Mana - gave realistic bass extension, a little too much for my liking, even a few friendly listeners have commented "never thought sbls could do 'real' bass"
When I mentioned articulation it was in the context of bass that can do 'deep' but also have control.
I anyone reading prefers deep-fatter bass, then think carefully about going active (especially with SBLs)
naheed...
I did find a combination of the 250s and Mana - gave realistic bass extension, a little too much for my liking, even a few friendly listeners have commented "never thought sbls could do 'real' bass"
When I mentioned articulation it was in the context of bass that can do 'deep' but also have control.
I anyone reading prefers deep-fatter bass, then think carefully about going active (especially with SBLs)
naheed...
Posted on: 15 January 2003 by JohanR
I agree on Naheeds definition of good quality bass.
Naim electronics do that, The SBL-concept based Naim loudspeakers (IBL, NBL, DBL, SL2) do that. But the cheaper bass reflex designs, IMHO, don't. And thats why I changed to Royd loudspeakers, as they do it.
May I suggest: Back to the drawing board, Paul?
JohanR
Naim electronics do that, The SBL-concept based Naim loudspeakers (IBL, NBL, DBL, SL2) do that. But the cheaper bass reflex designs, IMHO, don't. And thats why I changed to Royd loudspeakers, as they do it.
May I suggest: Back to the drawing board, Paul?
JohanR
Posted on: 15 January 2003 by Geoff P
A touch of heresy perhaps but
B&W has speakers in it range which in my opinion can supply preeeetty good controlled bass extension, and I'm not talking about the purse busting Nautalii examples.
In my case it is CM4's which I will admit do require patience and lots of placement experiments to get right. They are quoted with a -3dB point of 30Hz and seem to deliver to my ears.
It is not "boom", it is not "fat" it is fast and has attack.
Three provisos:
It's hard to prove in listening trials with a new pair. I reckon it took a minimum of 3 months to get the Aluminium cone bass drivers actually at their full potential, so try to find somebody who as a run in pair if you want to listen.
You have to crank up the volume a fair bit before the Bass starts to happen but with a sensitivity of 91db this is not hard to do, if the neighbourhood allows.
You have to get them away from the walls which means they can't be hidden away like furniture they kinda sit out in the room drawing attention to themselves.
I say they are worth consideration in the quest for quality bass
GEOFFP
B&W has speakers in it range which in my opinion can supply preeeetty good controlled bass extension, and I'm not talking about the purse busting Nautalii examples.
In my case it is CM4's which I will admit do require patience and lots of placement experiments to get right. They are quoted with a -3dB point of 30Hz and seem to deliver to my ears.
It is not "boom", it is not "fat" it is fast and has attack.
Three provisos:
It's hard to prove in listening trials with a new pair. I reckon it took a minimum of 3 months to get the Aluminium cone bass drivers actually at their full potential, so try to find somebody who as a run in pair if you want to listen.
You have to crank up the volume a fair bit before the Bass starts to happen but with a sensitivity of 91db this is not hard to do, if the neighbourhood allows.
You have to get them away from the walls which means they can't be hidden away like furniture they kinda sit out in the room drawing attention to themselves.
I say they are worth consideration in the quest for quality bass
GEOFFP
Posted on: 15 January 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
They are quoted with a -3dB point of 30Hz
Geoff,
So are SBLs.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
Posted on: 15 January 2003 by Greg Beatty
The trouble I'm having finding good speakers (besides price and efficiency constraints), is that my room is a bloody bass trap. Its largish, on the 2nd floor with a springy floor underneath, and has far-less-than-solid walls. Generating bass in this room is a very difficult affair.
So...'lean' speakers (by American bloated standards) sound anemic when the room acoustics are taken into account. The end result is too light to be listenable.
What to do???
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
So...'lean' speakers (by American bloated standards) sound anemic when the room acoustics are taken into account. The end result is too light to be listenable.
What to do???
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 15 January 2003 by Geoff P
Tough situation Greg
You could always try turning the underfloor cavity into a bass reflex chamber!!
People used to do that sort of thing in the search for massive slam as they called it.
GEOFFP
You could always try turning the underfloor cavity into a bass reflex chamber!!
People used to do that sort of thing in the search for massive slam as they called it.
GEOFFP