A little Music History

There is only one universally acknowledged, 100% verifiable rule in music: Sting is a nob who will at some point during a photoshoot take his shirt off.

That is all.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
We used to discuss music here, but no longer it seems.

To talk of a rule book ... Bach's, Beethoven's [which is Haydn's expanded in length but not scope], Wagner's [which is Liszt's but simplified], and so on is to assume a level of knowledge which is not going to encourage anyone to investigate any new first time classical music, but which allows some people to suggest that they are cleverer than most others on the subject!

Boring elitist crap, which serves no purpose at all.

It is not a starting point and the points made are so simplified, plain wrong, or simplistic as to show the authors of this dross as being only untutored pseudo-musicologist snobs at best and frightful snobs at worst.

I am out of here [the Music Room I mean] as there is nothing but discussion of musical pap in depth and pap discussion of deep music to contend with these days.

The Padded Cell is full is fundamentalist atheists, and the Hifi Corner last mentioned the effect of any alleged improvement in the perception of Music 57 days ago in one of my posts, apart from the mention of PRaT - whatever that might be ...

Happy New Year to those sane enough to see the mad house for what it has become.

Best wishes to the few who can understand this thought.

George, lighten up fella, it's just a forum. Not everyone will agree with you on everything, nor will you find everything everyone says palatable 100% of the time. So what? Either argue back, refute it or ignore it.

I can't understand why so many posters here are always flouncing off in a huff (they nearly always come back) and making big grand statements about how they're flouncing off and why.

Happy New Year!

By the way George, your assertion that the Padded Cell "is full of fundamentalist atheists" is rubbish. I think you'll simply find that that a number of people either disagree with, or are skeptical of, your view of the way the world works.

Grow some cojones man!

The question that inspired this thread is "Could there have been a Debussy without a Chopin?"

any thoughts in this direction?

quote:

I think the root of the current problem George has with me is that I am very interested in Chopin and Debussy at the moment, and these are two composers George has ed.

This is exactly wrong. I may not enjoy Debussy, but I certainly would never dismiss him, or any who enjoy him. What a thing to suggest that I would do that!

In the case of Chopin I adore what I know.

Please don't put words into my mouth Mike.

You have made it clear that you dislike me and dislike my posts - wishing me to refrain from posting, which is something I actually want to cease doing. It is my New Year resolution with respect to the Forum.

However if you insist on putting words into my mouth, then I have to answer and refute it, however reluctantly.

I enjoy a debate. I actually prefer a discussion where the view points are diverse, but I detest spin, snobbery, one-up-manship, and rubbish passed off as wisdom. One of the most disreputable things one can do on a Forum is to misrepresent another person. A very nasty form of dishonesty.

Please refrain from mentioning me for the next few days, and I shall relax, and then the Forum will soon forget. Either that or I shall specifically ask Richard Dane to fully withdraw my membership, and then it is against the Forum rules to mention an ex-member.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

quote:

I think the root of the current problem George has with me is that I am very interested in Chopin and Debussy at the moment, and these are two composers George has ed.

This is exactly wrong. I may not enjoy Debussy, but I certainly would never dismiss him, or any who enjoy him. What a thing to suggest that I would do that!

In the case of Chopin I adore what I know.

Please don't put words into my mouth Mike.

You have made it clear that you dislike me and dislike my posts - wishing me to refrain from posting, which is something I actually want to cease doing. It is my New Year resolution with respect to the Forum.

However if you insist on putting words into my mouth, then I have to answer and refute it, however reluctantly.

I enjoy a debate. I actually prefer a discussion where the view points are diverse, but I detest spin, snobbery, one-up-manship, and rubbish passed off as wisdom. One of the most disreputable things one can do on a Forum is to misrepresent another person. A very nasty form of dishonesty.

Please refrain from mentioning me for the next few days, and I shall relax, and then the Forum will soon forget. Either that or I shall specifically ask Richard Dane to fully withdraw my membership, and then it is against the Forum rules to mention an ex-member.

George

George, I enjoy your posts when you are not biting me. Why are you so worked up? It reads like crazy talk.

Meanwhile, how did Chopin influence Debussy?

Looking in "The Life of Debussy" by Roger Nichols, it turns out that Debussy won two medals for playing Chopin in his youth, and edited an edition of Chopin's music, which inspired him to write a set of Etudes, his last works for the piano.

I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find anything more conclusive than that.

Personally, like many threads, I find this a good read. Various individuals viewpoints of music from a more academic perspective are interesting & could contain some tips & hints that open up a new avenue for myself & other readers.

Re dissatisfaction of the way this is going; each to their own opinions, but I see no point in sending in a post putting down a thread. Seems like a playground rift, its my ball so you have to play it my way. What's wrong with choosing to ignore threads if its not going "my way". Or as I do just read.

In "At the piano with Debussy" edited by Maurice Hinson, it is said that Debussy wanted the performer to do nothing to bring out the melody but to create a halo of sound, which blows a big hole in some of my recent speculations.

Frank F : That's very strange because Fredrik (George) thoroughly enjoyed Chopin in the park when he visited us in Warsaw,

OK, taking that into account, I have no idea why this thread provoked the vehement reaction that it did.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin-W:
... Sting is a nob ... That is all.

At last a universal truth that all forum members, and indeed all sane men and women too, can agree upon.

That apart forum members will agree on some points and argue on others. The love of music is very passionate thing. I don't understand any musical theory, but I know what I like. There are a large number of classical works that when I take the trouble to listen to them sound wonderful to me. Lots I discovered through this forum.

Thanks to a recommendation by Mike I now have a set of Stravinsky ballets that cost a pittance and sound terrific. I now understand why Stravinsky was both controversial and brilliant.

My love of folk music also means I really enjoy listen to older music such as Dowland and Tallis, so I do have an interest in music history.

As an ELO fan, I would immediately acknowledge that it was not Ike Turner or Chuck Berry that instigated rock and roll, but Ludwig van Beethoven. ELO simply use the patterns that the German master invented.

I, honestly, think that the composers we regard as classical masters were the popular songwriters of their day and if recorded music had been available at the time would have totally dominated.

So let the discussion continue .... please.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin-W:
but I know what I like.

So let the discussion continue .... please.

ATB Rotf

ROTF, me too - another Genesis classic

I know what I like, and I like what I know;
getting better in your wardrobe, stepping one beyond your show.
I know what I like, and I like what I know;
getting in your wardrobe, stepping one beyond your show.

When the sun beats down and I lie on the bench,
I can always hear them talk.
Me, I'm just a lawnmower - you can tell me by the way I walk.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

So let the discussion continue .... please.

ATB Rotf

:-)

One of the greatest values for me, in posting on the forum, is the diverse nature of the posters.

There are music lovers, who found it and won't let go.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are posters who train their bodies to bring Chopin and Debussy into the room.

A great many of us fall somewhere in the middle.

It is an exciting read to hear from anyone.

When I fall in love with some music, anything I can hear about it is fresh and exciting.

It is a great virtue to be able to indulge yourself this way.

Waiting for a reply :-)

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
and Harold Demure,who's still not quite sure fires acorns from out of his sling.
(Here comes the cavalry!)

Hehe Whenever I hear that line (from "Battle of Epping Forest", yes?) I wonder how Peter Gabriel feels about it in these more politically correct times - especially given the way he sings it (the word "mincing" comes to mind).

Only Mr Gabriel can come up with this stuff A very important part of Music History. That's what a Charterhouse education does for you.

quote:

Its a book in one song.
Classic.

Indeed. The whole album is great - my favourite by Genesis, though Adrian's recent outpouring of enthusiasm has made me want to hear Trick of the Tail again (it's been years).

With Beethoven, the sound of classical music changed. Many new possibilities made themselves apparent.

The first composer I know of that made some truly new music of his own after Beethoven is Chopin, who I find reflected in Debussy, another original soul, for reasons I can not quite put my finger on, other than things I have read.

Any commentary on Beethoven-Chopin-Debussy is welcome.

Mike, I don't have much knowledge of composer biographies, or their cited influences, but purely empirically from listening, I'd suspect you need to throw a fair dollop of Wagner into the mix if you're interested in investigating the influences on Debussy.

quote:

Originally posted by Nathaniel:
Mike, I don't have much knowledge of composer biographies, or their cited influences, but purely empirically from listening, I'd suspect you need to throw a fair dollop of Wagner into the mix if you're interested in investigating the influences on Debussy.

I think you are correct, but I am not equipped to do so, and am dependent on another poster to come forward, who has some knowledge of Wagner and his influences.

I did some research into this, and based on my reading, I don't see Wagner as a major influence on Debussy. In fact, based on my listening, I see a much stronger link between Chopin and Debussy.

But that is just my feeling :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

I did some research into this, and based on my reading, I don't see Wagner as a major influence on Debussy. In fact, based on my listening, I see a much stronger link between Chopin and Debussy.

But that is just my feeling :-)

Mike, check out Edward Lockspeiser's Debussy. Debussy had a significant and profound relationship with Wagner's music, very complicated and definitely a huge influence. Early on Debussy was, like much of Paris at the time, enthralled with Wagner.

Later, Debussy renounced the cult of Wagner and sought to establish his own voice, much in the same way an adolescent breaks free from a parent. Concurrently, Erik Satie was putting the bug in his ear that French composers should compose inherently French music, antithetical to Wagnerianism. Also around the same time, Debussy was seduced by the music of a Javanese gamelan.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Edward Lockspeiser's Debussy

Thanks Fred, I'll go order this off Amazon.

In the meanwhile, how did Wagner influence Debussy? The whole tone scales came from his interest in the music of Java, not from Wagner. I don't hear Wagner in La Mer or in his preludes. Where should I listen to hear this influence? I attribute Debussy's chromaticism to his close study of Chopin.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Edward Lockspeiser's Debussy

Thanks Fred, I'll go order this off Amazon.

In the meanwhile, how did Wagner influence Debussy? The whole tone scales came from his interest in the music of Java, not from Wagner. I don't hear Wagner in La Mer or in his preludes. Where should I listen to hear this influence? I attribute Debussy's chromaticism to his close study of Chopin.

Wagner's influence is most directly heard in Debussy's earlier works, such as Cinq poèmes de Baudelaire. Especially in such works as Tristan und Isolde, Wagner pointed the way toward a free-floating, non-functional tonality, with chains of unresolved dominant 7th chords, unprepared modulations, etc. ... a general tonal ambiguity which, by the way, also influenced early Schoenberg.

Wagner was an overwhelming influence on not only Debussy and other composers, but also on poets, painters, and others who were in the thrall of the cult of Wagner. It is this disproportionate influence that Debussy (and others such as Tchaikovsky) eventually rebelled against, even calling Wagner "that old poisoner" ... not necessarily that his musical ideas were poisonous, but his ubiquitous pervasive shadow.

By the way, Debussy's use of the whole-tone scale was not the result of the gamelan influence ... firstly, gamelan music is not based on the whole-tone scale but, rather, tuning systems based on 5-note and 7-note scales; the two major systems are slendro and pélog, the latter of which roughly corresponds to the Western pitches C#-D-E-G#-A, with the G# considered as the root, or "home." This is an admittedly oversimplification of gamelan tuning systems, but suffice to say that they bear no similarity to the Western whole-tone scale. A more likely influence on Debussy in his use of the whole-tone scale was the exoticism embraced by Russian composers such as Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, and Mussorgsky.

The other thing to consider is that the whole-tone scale is the very definition of pure tonal ambiguity ... all its notes are equidistant, and no one note dominates. Its fulcrum is the tritone (three consecutive whole-steps) which is the furthest distance any two notes in the Western chromatic scale can be from each other (taking into account octave inversions, i.e., a 6th is really just an inverted 3rd).

All best,
Fred

Thanks Fred for the music lesson :-)

Time to do some reading on Debussy.

My new composers for 2010 are Stravinsky, Chopin and Debussy. I've done a decent bit of reading, and gotten scores of Pulcinella and the Ebony Concerto, for Stravinsky, but done nothing yet for Chopin and Debussy.

I think I'll go listen to whole tone scales for a while ...

if you can read a score then you have no need for multiple boxes

Fred, I think you overstate your case about Wagner's overwhelming influence on Debussy.

If you could show that was so in the Preludes, La Mer and Images, that would be sufficent, but I don't think you can. Debussy's opera is a fluke. A few pieces in youth, then moving in a completely different direction, that's a far cry from overwhelming.
You could make a much better case for Wagner's influence on Schoenberg, Mahler and Bruckner.

A primary component of Wagner's sound is his orchestration. The Wagner orchestra is nowhere to be found in Debussy, who has a distinctive voicing unlike anyone else, even Ravel. To my ear, Wagner had no influence on Debussy's major works.

Part of my reluctance is based on a dislike of Wagner's music and a suspicion that his advocates are ready to attribute the invention of the telephone and the automobile to Wagner :-)