Am I being realistic?

John

My brother is having a lot of fun driving some cans from my modded Quad 405/2. 100+ watts per channel gives it plenty of grip over the cans.

BTW, how much are the Crimsons?

regards,

Mark

Your Crimsons should be a perfect match for a pair of Magneplanars. They provide an open window on the musical capability of your equipment. A pair of good Maggies would cost you about £3k, although I've heard £1.5k ones that do the trick.

Maggies will also let the flat earth qualities of your kit shine through.

Alternatively the new Naim 'speakers may be just the ticket.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

I prefer speakers every time. Headphones give more detail but I like the music set out before me not injected into my head. That said headhones reveal detail that speakers ten times the price would find difficult to reproduce.

cheers

Nigel

p.s. interesting address Mark - not one of the Demon Princes are you?

Although If I had to plump for one of them it would be The Killing Machine. The looting of Interchange thrills me every time.

Are you aware oof the VIE project?

regards,

Mark

Another proof that the Japanese are able to create first-class hifi if they want to, and forget about the old theory that they had "different ears"...

IMO, speakers will never be able to reproduce music with as much detail as good headphones, be it only for physical reasons. Just try to make a comparison between wine and champaign - KWIM ?

Bernard

quote:

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BTW, how much are the Crimsons?

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Around £1300 for the 200w monoblocks - a bargain, IMHO - had they been twice as much, I'd probably have ended up with something else, but they are powerful little buggers, given their small size!

As far as headphones go, I had a feeling that I was after levels of detail beyond speakers - I mean, take your typical Senn HD600s and then increase the level of detail again by about 50% - that's what I'm getting from the Mana'd, External PSU's headphone stage. Quite simply as good as I've heard headphones sound (and quite unlike typical headphone sound - I swear that these cans can image!)

So, yeah, I am delighted with my new amps (with the proviso that there's still more to come - they're new and not yet broken in) but I had to draw the comparison against the extraordinary HD600 ensemble I have right now. Of course, it's lack of room effects surely emphasises its detail, I would imagine, and those little headphone amps respond well to external PSUs and Mana supports...

As far as speakers go - I have Neat Petites with gravitas subs, which are the best I've heard for any less than daft money, and so they're staying!

Ta,

John

I was unaware of this, but I have just been looking at the web site - a monumental but worthwhile effort.

cheers

Nigel

For the same budget, I'd have been looking at a ???/150 (forget the preamp's number) which, whilst good, wasn't really comparable...

I don't think it's so much a case of any deficiencies in the preamp as unbelievable gains in the headphone ensemble...

Granted, a £500 preamp is never going to give me the best out of the poweramps (which are probably closest to 135s in the Naim hierarchy, I'd think) - the only reason I bought the preamp was because it is so cheap and capable that I'd be daft not to - I mean, I'm sure an 82 or 52 is better, but they're a lot of money, even secondhand...

John

Maybe it was the forementioned battery PSU, but I could have sworn that Crimson had a separate mains PSU for the pre-amp.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

That is, while you've strengthened you front end (boy, what a front end!), in selecting your speakers first, and then changing yer amps on a tight budget, you've effectively created a rod to beat yourself with (sorry, I forget the metaphor)... I realise this advice is akin to the stable door after the horse has bolted etc, but would suggest an 82/140 (yes indeed, we're talking NO-Cap here!) will provide truckloads of music until such time as you have funds to add PSU's/gruntier power amps etc - [i]given[/b] suitable speakers. You've said a 140 will not cut the mustard, so in your current position you are forced to balance your system by amp choice with two constraints - 1)budget, and 2)sonics - never a envious position.

Dude, this is a round-earth way of choosing a system! It leads to upgrade-itis, and feelings of 'being in a pinch' until you've balanced it the way your ears want, which will likely invove an eventual broadening of budget, if you insist on retaining your speakers (I understand you will - that was a long search, right?).

Sorry - I realise this is west of your Cans vs speaker question. Perhaps I can relate that even my CDX/82/SC/140/KanI setup was always more satisfying in detail/rythmn/musicality terms, that the Sennheiser HD580/Creek OBH11/Mana alternative output rarely gets a lookin (for all it's obvious flaws). Nowadays with CDX/XPS/82/SC/140/SBL's I'm wondering if I can ever face the cans again.

HTH

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

Thing is, I know that I can't get better power amps at that price, and the preamp - well, let's just say that I was fully aware that a £500 preamp would not beat a 52! However, much as I see and accept the source-first methodology (having an LP12/Aro/Lingo based system) IME the benefits of the good source were being lost with my old amplifiers. Things are sounding so much better now, and I wouldn't go back, but the fact remains that the headphones are more detailed sounding.

Questions:

(1) If I can hear the detail in the headphones, it's clearly coming from the source into the preamp and to the headphone amp. The headphone amp can obviously not add what isn't there, so the detail I crave is obviously being delivered by the preamp, so all the above hoo-haa-ing is moot - surely this then swings the spotlight onto power amps and speakers?

(2) Given that everything sounds great through the speakers, but just lacks that ultimate detail (and I am being incredibly picky here) could it be because the power amps have not yet been broken in? I've had the CD player playing more-or-less continuously at low volumes during the day and overnight, and higher volumes (whilst listening) in the evenings, maybe a total of 30hrs playback since new?

(3) Am I being unfair to the capabilities of power-amp:speaker combinations in general, i.e. do top-end headphones (such as the excellent HD600s, which I am delighted with) have an inherent potential for detail beyond the reach of even the very best speaker:amplifier combinations?

Note that I'm not talking PRaT or imaging or musicality here, just detail - all else is well in the sound, and I'm just trying to establish in my mind whether there is a weak link in the chain, or whether I am just being unreasonable.

Side notes: speakers are Neat Petite/Gravitas (mkIII, ex-demo), wire is DNM Reson (broken in), amps are Crimson 640 monoblocks (new, not yet broken in?).

In my demoing, broken-in versions of the same amps were clearly ahead of the 102/250/HiCap and ???/150 I demoed them against, source was CD5/FlatCap (I think - didn't look like a hicap anyway).

John

1) I agree with you here.
2) I dont' think it even has too much to do with the power amp. I'm the person listening to cans (HD565 Ovations) through the modded Quad 405/2 - an amp to polarise opinion if ever there was one - and it sounds fantastic when the source is working right (another story). I've been tinkering with building headphone amps for the last 6 years plus, in several different topologies, and the Quad is the end of the line, no contest. Through cnas it does detail, PRaT, bass slam and a bunch of other things it is reputedly incapable of through speakers....
3) Speakers will never do the detail thing the same way, for a couple of good reasons:

a) Speakers are a complex, low impedance load on the power amp whereas headphones are (highly) resistive, therefore much easier to drive accurately.

b) Speakers have nasty things called crossovers in them - even active systems have crossovers in the mix somewhere - driving a nefarious array of not-desparately-cogent heavy cone things in a vain attempt to move enough air that you think you're hearing a real event. All of which will never sum to the sort of precise output that a single, tiny, wideband driver can give - such as is used in decent cans - listened to close up. Corollary of this in my experience is that cans do the timing thing much better than speakers too.

As Mark put it, 'headphones do things differently'.

Martin

[This message was edited by Martin Clark on WEDNESDAY 21 March 2001 at 10:01.]

I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave to the previous question. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

We're not comparing like with like here (hear?!), so bear with me as I e-think at you.

After a long hunt you found speakers you really like - good. Now you have amps which you feel are excellent and which you have heard drive your speakers in a very (1300 smackeroos worth) satisfying way - better. John should = happy bunny. However, now has a question about his headphones.

OK, so cans and speakers are different in almost every respect. If the question is level of detail, given that the same source signal is feeding both, it's a good idea to look for the differences in the 2 systems. I suggest that the difference is your ROOM. Cans remove the room interaction element of listening and, short of a high ambient noise level, they're, certain models aside (e.g. Stax,) environment independent.

So, look at your listening environment. I suspect that as far as detail is concerned most is found within the mid-treble band. Your cans may emphasise this part of the spectrum but I think it's likely that the info is coming out of the speakers but being lost/absorbed by the room. I suggest that you look at the room acoustic/speaker position first. How does your voice sound when you stand in different places in the room and ditto a handclap? Wander round repeating the alphabet in a monotone and listen to the way the room changes the way it sounds. You'll be surprised at the degree of variation within relatively short distances.

There was an interesting series of posts on the Room Full of Shirts empirical method and this site has some excellent advice:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/index.html

Just for your amusement I'll relate an entirely anectdotal piece of evidence. In the flat we had in London I had my guitar in a corner of the room on a stand, behind and 1.5m to the side of the speakers. It was a timber top Ovation but I kept the soundhole covered with some absorbent soft cloth (a duster). I went on holiday, found a new guitar, an Adamas, which has a carbon fibre sandwich top. When I put the new guitar on the stand I got an immediate hi-fi upgrade which seemed empirically greater than the cost of the new guitar. Basically, it wasn't singing along to the music in the same way. (hope you enjoyed that :-0)

Really I should look to your room and, BTW, I think your amps may take several of weeks to run in. I know my Naim stuff takes 3 weeks to come back on song. So keep on burning them in.

I get less detail on my KEF 104/2s than on my Senn 540 Refs. But the speakers are more satisfying.

Just my five farthings worth.

regards,

Mark

Vuk and Rico are right on the money for me. You have a good front end and revealing speakers but a preamp that is not strong.

You would have been better to gone for a Naim pre-amp and sensitive speakers with a lesser amp.

Maybe something like 102/Hicap/140 and some secondhand ES14's (or equivalent).

Dev

quote:

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You would have been better to gone for a Naim pre-amp and sensitive speakers with a lesser amp.

Maybe something like 102/Hicap/140 and some secondhand ES14's (or equivalent).

---

I have heard Neat Pettites sound truly excellent when driven off a Densen integrated, so I am not at all convinced about the efficiency argument. I really like the Neats, and would definitely take them over Epos 14s.

The Petites would seem to be a simple two way ported speaker, so should not take that much current. If the subs are what takes up all the juice, then loose 'em, a second hand 82 / 140 should sound excellent, and with the money from the subs you could get a Hicap!

Tony.

Moving up the chain to an Arcam 10P, which is quite powerful in its own right (115w), the Neats improved a lot but it was only when I listened with the better amps that I realised how good a speaker they can be.

Despite the 'mullet' like claim, what I hear through the headphones proves that the preamp is an excellent beastie, and remarkable given its low price. So, 52 aside, I'm not convinced a move to a different preamp would reap that much as the preamp I have seems to deliver more than the poweramp:speaker:room combination can deliver.

That, plus the fact that the amps aren't 'bedded-in' yet reassures me. I guess my expectation of what is actually possible is a bit too high here - maybe speaker placement might be out a bit too...

John

Martin

(alleviating the tedium with Burning Spear LOUD via cans today..)

quote:

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Moving up the chain to an Arcam 10P, which is quite powerful in its own right (115w), the Neats improved a lot but it was only when I listened with the better amps that I realised how good a speaker they can be.

---

Wow, we seem to be entering the ridiculous spec games of the 1970s once more! Don't for one minute confuse measured watts per channel with the ability to drive a real loudspeaker.

As an example, I once borrowed a Krell KSA 100 MkII to drive the Isobariks I had at the time when my 135s were off at Naim being recapped. The monster Krell simply could not get a grip on them, the bass was all over the place, and the amp sounded like it was struggling at all times. This is an amplifier that measures near perfectly on paper, it doubles measured output as impedance is halved exactly, right down to 1 Ohm, yet a humble Naim 35 watt Nap 110 could get far, far more music out of these speakers…

Just because a given Arcam has 115 measured wpc does not imply it can drive a real speaker any better than another amp with half that rating. Watts mean nothing at all.

Tony.

quote:

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with low bass you are driving the room or the ears with pressure changes rather than waves

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Matthew

Second, your preamp/amp are clearly NOT passing enough low level detail to match the advantage headphones have in the complete lack of room interference and the lack of crossover. All the reflections of sound in a room seem to really muck up detail. If you want to hear more detail in your room, you need to either pass more detail through to the speakers, or make the room less obscuring.

About bass, I'm no expert, but I believe the troubles in supporting low bass in a room disappear if the room is small enough. I never seem to experience a lack of bass in a car, even with cheap ass 3" woofers and 5wpc car stereos.

--Eri

quote:

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Despite the 'mullet' like claim, what I hear through the headphones proves that the preamp is an excellent beastie, and remarkable given its low price. So, 52 aside, I'm not convinced a move to a different preamp would reap that much as the preamp I have seems to deliver more than the poweramp:speaker:room combination can deliver.

---

John, I have one more word to add here:

SYNERGY.

You cannot examine your system on the individual merits of each peice of kit. It's who the whole works as the sum of it's parts, coupled with room interaction/optimisation.

My other fundamental rule is not to screw around with new/used kit in your system until it's either warmed-up, or burned-in... leave it all for another month or more, then take stock. And think of your system hollistically. I think Eric Barry's remarks above certainly have some weight. If you were open to the Naim amplification idea, try Tony's suggestion (I'd be more inclined to push ES11's on 140 as a rule of thumb, though the 140 will work ES14's with the strong FE you have). The 140 is remarkably capable given a strong front end, decent pre-amplification, and suitable load. If you must continue with the Crimson (I understand they're very good, sadly have not heard them myself)... you must be prepared to improve preamp, change speakers, or work on your room interaction/setup to improve system synergy to provide the sound you desire - it's a case of determining which variable improves the synergy most. And what about the Densen?

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

quote:

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I'm not convinced a move to a different preamp would reap that much as the preamp I have seems to deliver more than the poweramp:speaker:room combination can deliver.

---

Clearly you realize that if you followed this line when selecting components you would never upgrade any component upstream of the speakers until you owned the most revealing speakers on the planet.

In fairness to you, it seems you have done this to an extent as you system is very back-heavy.

Don't forget the music no matter what kit you have

- GregB
Who Is Enjoying Records Now That the LP12 is Tracking Better

Then we go further downstream to the amps - monoblocks and preamp, chosen because they were the best I heard in the budget during audition (budget ~£2000, although I listened at setups up to just under £3000 in value for reference).

So, I'm lost - are you implying that you think the Crimsons are in some way inferior to the equivalent Naim stuff at that price? 'cause I did audition the Naim contingent too, and chose with my ears, if you follow my drift.

All this talk of 'bottom heavy' and 'mullet' systems is ridiculous - sure, the P/G's on the end of a NAP500 with a LP12/Akito/K9 would fit that bill, yes, but I'd like clarification on your rationale for the 'mullet' accusations?

John (just given blood and therefore not at 100%)

Not an accusation - its not Friday

My comment was based on a quote from you and the general notes that your amps seem to be well ahead of your pre (back end).

Forgot about your LP12.

Enjoy the tunes.

- GregB