What could have gone wrong?

Posted by: garyi on 12 October 2002

Well here it is I have been disatisfied with my system for a little while now.

I have not been able to pin it down to anything except that a few weeks ago I wanted to put the kit somewhere else, just a little way past where it is and thought I would be a good opportunity for a dust up (at that point I had no problem with the sound).

Anyways I took it apart and put it back together, today I have rechecked everything to be sure.

I got the lends of a cartridge and was concerned that the cart was off balance in terms of sound, more sound was coming from the right hand speaker.

Well I have worked out why I am not happy with things at the moment, every source is leaning to the right side, I need the balance at 10 oclock to even things up.

This is most odd. I though mabye the speakers were out of phase, not so, I have checked all leads and they are fine, speakers seem in good order as well.

So I swapped the speaker wires at the amp end, turned them upside down as well so that it was all correct and the balance problems switched to the other speaker, now I need it at 2 ocock to be evens.

I have discounted the hicap, because I disconnected it and the problem persists. I also checked the balance control because sometimes if you are rough with it you can twist the whole unit so it dosn't appear to be centre, that was fine.

So what could cause a mismatch with the balance, where should I look next, bearing in mind I don't have a spare amp or pre amp knocking around?

BTW the sound was fine a few weeks ago I am sure of it.

Bugger
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
Its happening will all of them, TV, Radio, CD, Deck, in other owrds its not the sources.

It must be either amp or pre, but what could cause one channel to become quieter?
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
surely changing the cable at the amp end and the problem switching channels would indicate a problem with the amp or pre?

I suppose I could change the cable at the speaker end to eliminate the cables, i'll get back to you.
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by Paul Ranson
Do you have a mono button?

If so what happens when it's activated?

Paul
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
No mono, I have a 102. Am just going to fight with the leads a minute.
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
Curious.

I switched the leads around at the speaker end. The problem still exists in the same speaker but now I have to turn the balance to 2 oclock instead of 10 oclock to even things up.

I am getting confused now, the problem is in the speaker? Wire? or amp?
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
Just gave the middle box a bit of a touch, totally flakey seal lifted straight off, smack my hands naughty boy.

I cannot believe what a difference it makes, will repair later.

Thanks for the help.
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
Alas this was not the problem.
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by Steve B
If you switch leads and the fault is in the same speaker then it must be a dodgy speaker/crossover.

Have you tried kicking it?

Steve B
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
I switched the leads around at the speaker end. The problem still exists in the same speaker but now I have to turn the balance to 2 oclock instead of 10 oclock to even things up.

It's a speaker thing then.

I suppose you could try swapping the crossovers between speakers.

Paul
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by garyi
Well I can try this, however what could have gone wrong with them, I havn't hammered the speakers, ever.

Very odd, But I will try on the morrow.

Am watching 'the others' right now, a bit cak.
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
I switched the leads around at the speaker end. The problem still exists in the same speaker but now I have to turn the balance to 2 oclock instead of 10 oclock to even things up.



Gary,

you didn't say, but I guess you moved the speakers, as well as the amps?

It's probably just that you've found a bad position for one (or both) of the speakers. Even a few inches can make this much of a difference.

cheers, Martin
Posted on: 12 October 2002 by ejl
quote:
It's a speaker thing then.


Indeed. Ditch whatever you have and buy a pair of 'Briks. Older models, preferably with the quasi-walnut veneer -- ratty looking ones sound best.

Keep the foam grills off, this improves the treble.
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by garyi
Sorry, I'll stick with the SBLs briks look like 80s coffins, I don't want them in the house.

As for the sound problem. I just don't know I am really confused now and wonder if I am just being hyper critical.

The thing is if you could imagine a point in the centre of the speakers where say the guitar is playing, thats fine, but the bass and drums seems to come from the right speaker more than the left, if I udjust the balance the bass and drums moves around to square things up but the gutiar stays where it was in the first place. Its like if I balance things up then I am making it mono, not stereo any more. This is a most peculier problem.
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Steve B
Just a thought Gary,

Have you tried swapping the crossovers?

Steve B
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by garyi
Yea I am going to try it now, see what happens.
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by garyi
Some one do me a favour. Put on Bowies Space oddity, once it kicks off proper, where do you hear the bass player, for me hes midway between the centre and the left speaker.

I rekon for continuity it should bebang on the centre.
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by garyi
Also when that weird noise happens on space oddity, shouldn't that be in the centre? Its well off for me.

I think we can safely assume crossover, I have swapped them and the problem has switched to the other speaker.

What could I have done to the crossover. I do remember having the volume at around 12 oclock with the record deck, and not turning it down after finishing, when the fridge kicked in it made a hell of a popping noise could this have done the cross over?


Doh!
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Steve B
quote:
Doh!


Well at least you know you're not going mad.

I doubt that the fridge has damaged the Xover. Anyway, it shouldn't be too expensive to fix.

Steve B
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi all:

garyi wrote:

>The thing is if you could imagine a point in the centre of the speakers where say the guitar is playing, thats fine, but the bass and drums seems to come from the right speaker more than the left, if I udjust the balance the bass and drums moves around to square things up but the gutiar stays
where it was in the first place. Its like if I balance things up then I am making it mono, not stereo any more. This is a most peculier problem.<

Gary, my system is fairly similar to yours except I have Credos. I too have noticed this effect excpt mine seems far less pronounced in that I have my balance set at about 11 o'clock. Your description above is bang on the money. It's as though the balance control is shifting some frequencies and not others. I had always put this down to cumulative errors between channels adding up through the system (or me being obsessive) but now I'm not so sure. Please let us know what you find.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by garyi
Mark it is an intersesting occurance. I wonder if its just the way we hear things, perhaps the placement of the guitar being a higer pitch is much easier to define that the lower frequencies of the bass.

One thing is for sure my balance is signifcantly out. The question for me is have I only noticed this because I have been assessing this cart that I am borrowing, or has it only just begun.

I need to be sure its the Cross Over, this is looking to be the case as swapping them put the problem to the other speaker.

I still don't understand what I could have done to damage them though, they are quite new. Of course now I am a little stuck until I can get some more cross overs to check.

I am glad I am not the only one to spot the unusual balance controls
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by garyi
Steve I appriciate your frustration, however mine sounds anything but dull! The only problem I am experiencing is that I need to adjust the dial to 10 oclock. Vinyl espcially sounds fantstic with the DV cart I am using right now. I thought this may be the problem, perhaps I was hearing those round earth projection things and it was confusig me. This cart certainly is more round earth in the respect, much more projection and instrument placement is a lot easier than the klyde.

Also I have identified that it is the cross over not the electronics.

I know that the naim balance control is not simply a case of reducing volume on one side of the speaker, something I guess you may logically think was the case.

I have a lively room though, wood floors etc, mabye yours is sounding dull due to mucho furnishings? I must say I have never heard anyone say naim was dull.
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi Stephan and Gary:

My 102 has S/N 131893 and is circa 1998ish. I tend to agree with Gary on this in that the system doesn't sound dull or 'bad' in any way, just a smidge lopsided. Gary's is more than a 'smidge' though. I'm going to change x-overs around tonight and see if there's any difference.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Mark Dunn
Gary and Stefan:

I swapped x-overs on my Credos and although it made a difference for the better, the change was minimal and I doubt due to any problems with the X-overs.

Just to reiterate,- I don't want to blow this out of proportion in my case, as the system sounds great and certainly isn't suffering from the amount of ailment Gary is reporting. However, the effect *is* there.

FWIW, in my case, if I were to take a step back and look afresh at what I've heard, my intuitive guess would be a slight misalignment of channel tracking in either the volume or balance pots.

Gary and Stefan, please report on what you come up with.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunns
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Rico
Garyi

congrats on tracking it down to your PXO. Sometimes there can be a bad contact where the Bananna sockets connect to the PCB. Or maybe where the NACA5 is connected to the PCB. At any rate, those friendly folks at Naim service dept should be able to sort it out nicely for you.

Hi to Mark & Sheila! smile

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio
Posted on: 13 October 2002 by Andrew Randle
Garyi said
quote:
Some one do me a favour. Put on Bowies Space oddity, once it kicks off proper, where do you hear the bass player, for me hes midway between the centre and the left speaker

Same here, and I have no problem with my loudspeakers. The bass guitar has quite a rounded and delicate presence to it.

Gary, can you also do me a favour and tell me whether you think your vinyl pressing of Fila Brazillia's "A Touch of Cloth" is particularly bad. Mine sounds extremely distorted the whole way through, in a fuzzy kind of manner.

If yours is fine then I need to take steps to get another copy.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner