Novice question

D'ya get many people with 7000 ears round your way?

More seriously: I agree entirely.

quote:

Even a good budget DVD machine (using correct menu selections) should produce good sounds through good amp/front speaker installation without need for centre (or bass) extras.

Sorry, but if you truly beleive that, then you simply have not heard just what a good centre channel & sub can do.

It is miles short of what can be achieved, even with a half decent centre.

A sub does way more than the 'low notes' hence the phrase LFE - low frequency effects.

This you will never get to the same degree as in a full system, neither do you know the amount of stuff you are missing from the centre.

I agree that most people have 2 ears capable of differentiating stereo information anywhere behind/above/below/in front of them.

I seem to be fortunate enough to enjoy decent stereo loudspeakers capable of providing centre-information and LF information etc as well as to rear-to side-behind front main speakers-above-below, and occasionally for 'film' material to add bangs/whizzes to rear.

If other people wish to fill their lives with extra boxes etc, good luck to them/you.

As regards original post, an adequate DVD m/c set up appropriately should sound much better into adequate stereo sytem than through a tellie, and centre-information will be in the right place.

A really good subwoofer (with true AV potential) is esential to any degree of realism in film watching. It is an essential addition to a stereo system before even considering surround for film watching. The money spent on a cheap surround system would be far better spent in simply adding a decent (AV quality) subwoofer to a good stereo system. Action film reality is believing the structure of your home is in immediate danger of collapse. That takes serious air movement.

Subwoofers might seem 'essential' for some, but not for others. I am sure subwoofers etc etc can be good fun, but some have that fun through agreeable sounds through main stereo loudspeaker system adequately installed in good listening-environment.

I still know than Kans installed properly etc can be very nice, and I agree that I will not use mine as rear surround-sound units for film sound-tracks where I too prefer something more sensitive/with more 'apparent' LF to emphasize spatially e.g. earthquakes/universes being swallowed from front stereo loudspeakers.

I still hope that the original thread-initiator finds enlightenment.

Sorry Chumpy but I have to say it: You really haven't a clue. Until you feel the house disintegrating around you, you really haven't lived the true AV experience. There is no substitute for real fear! This is exactly what the film sound mixers had in mind. Why else would the studio bother to pay them so highly for their experience and talent? If you aren't getting up around 110dB(C) at 20Hz (in room) you really aren't even close to what the director intended!

One can easily differentiate between high quality LF effects and cheap noise on films. Some LF tracks are amazing and others are loud, but complete crap. Some just don't sound real!

If scenes from Spiderman 2 don't sound like chunks are literally being torn out of your living room walls when the bad guy is climbing skyscraper walls it's time to think about a real subwoofer. Accept no substitute! The big name farting boomboxes don't even pretend to give you the AV experience. They are two-a-penny at AV shows and high street dealers. None of whom have ever even heard of the makers of real subwoofers.

£400 is the starting point with BK and SVS. Never heard of them? Check out some other AV forums for the select few makes and models which can move you (and your home) at (and above) that base starting price. You will thank me publicly if you ever do get a real subwoofer. You will walk around grinning to yourself like an idiot. I can guarantee it! The grin comes packed in the box with the subwoofer just like a canister of laughing gas.

The lack of excited subwoofer discussion on this polite, upmarket HT forum is indicative of a total lack of experience with real subwoofers. Those who own the real thing can't stop talking about them for at least a year after purchase. Subwoofers are as addictive as Naim upgrades once you get that first fix of the real thing. There are specialist subwoofer forums and websites all over the internet if you look. I'm sorry to say that you will discover more about subwoofers in an hour of lurking there, than you will in a year of polite conversation on this HT forum.

I have to agree with Nime. I have two subwoofers in a relatively small room, since discovering the experts are right in pointing to the better bass rendition this provides. I use both for LFE on films and one is used in a tastefull manner via it's speaker level inputs to fully realise the frequency range in my Naim stereo. The effect of a decent subwoofer is especially delightful at low listening levels which sometimes fit the mood.

quote:

The lack of excited subwoofer discussion on this polite, upmarket HT forum is indicative of a total lack of experience with real subwoofers.

I don't bother to discuss it much, espcially in the HiFi Corner where attempts to recommend subwoofers bring forth the same reaction as chumpy is providing here.

I do feel also that adding sub woofers for HiFi stereo is not the way to fix a bad sounding system/room situation but rather an upgrade to be done to a system that already plays music in a satisfying and controlled manner. It is not necessarily the right advice for a novice user until they uhave optimised their main speaker system first.

regards
Geoff

My love/hate relationship with my Kans was allowed to continue for a few more years thanks to the way stereo subwoofers warmed the sound. They provided bass where there was none and generally made them listenable for hours at much high levels on a much wider range of material. Kans that are flat down to 20Hz are few and far between.

That said subwoofers are not always easy to set up. The room's dimensions are the real arbiter. Particularly if one doesn't want to get into modifying the frequency response of the subwoofer with equalisers. Note that it is the subwoofer response which is modified and not the precious speaker signal.

Small changes in position can make large differences. One cannot even make fast rules about corners being best. My own subwoofer is nearly 3 metres from the nearest corner and thrives there with regards to sound quality. The tightness and accuracy of bass reproduction is obvious in comparison with the woolly and boomy corner position.

Typical attics with sloping surfaces are far more forgiving with regards to subwoofers. They are often far larger than many rooms in the house below. The absence of parallel boundaries to spoil the bass response is the secret here. With luck the room's larger dimensions may even push the response peaks below the usual hearing threshold of 20Hz. Or place them where they do most good for AV action film use between 20-40Hz.

This webpage is useful for calculating your own room's likely peaks.

http://www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htm

We do seem to have wandered rather far from the original path of this thread.

Whilst respecting the right of users to have their house disintegrate around them, I find that most visual etc media has things within more important to me. I am sure that some purchasers need good subwoofers.

quote:

Originally posted by Chumpy:
Whilst respecting the right of users to have their house disintegrate around them, I find that most visual etc media has things within more important to me. I am sure that some purchasers need good subwoofers.

Well that's very diplomatic.

But have you actually heard a real (AV) subwoofer properly set up in an AV system?