Third anniversary

It is a mess that the US and UK administrations have landed our two nations with the responsibiity to see put right if we possibly can. I would wonder who in Iraq apart from the Kurds would really consider what is happening now preferable to what Saddam Hussein was purpetrating while in power.

Why could Blair and Bush not have waited till the UN Weapons Inspectors had said that they could go no further, or reported an all clear? Then this situation would either not have happened, or they Allies would have been more numerous, and possibly had the moral high ground. The reputations of the US and UK have been damaged internationally by this for a whole generation, which is rather longer than the effects will be felt on our current leaders of our two countries, responsible for the madness of it. Rather like starting a fire where there is no certainty that it can can controlled. The whole thing was ill-planned and ill-conceived at the start, and far more serious now. I have no idea how it can be sorted out. It is not the military who are at fault, but they are the ones who will face the greatest casualties as the result of this idiocy.

My goodness that was serious, Fredrik

My hopes are that Bush and his poodle Blair are sentanced to life imprisonment for war crimes - fat chance of that happening. To stay in Iraq is untenable. To leave Iraq any time soon is to betray it's people to civil war, power vacuum and the next Saddam. The withdrawal will cause a complete loss of face and will be seen as a retreat by the Arab world and a victory for the insurgents (freedom fighters). All this was predicted from the start. Oh, and where are those damn WMD? How many innocent men, women and children killed thus far? And for what?

Yesterday I heard a radio interview of a prominent supporter of the occupation (I didn't catch his name).

When asked what the occupation of Iraq had achieved, his answer was something like: "Well, first of all, it definitively proved the non-existence of WMD, which the UN inspection program could never have done".

Talk about blatantly trying to spin-doctor a negative into a positive.

Steve

Yes it is a big mess. As usual Australia joined any war that the US or UK started at the earliest oppotunity and much of our army is in Iraq too.

What I don't understand is the obsession with keeping Iraq in one piece. Iraq was created after WW1 at the same time as Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. No one tried to keep them together. There are three distinct ethnic groups living in three geographic regions. What is wrong with self determination?

There maybe some benefits. For instance Turkish Kurdistan could join Iraqi Kurdistan and a smaller more western Turkey would find it much easier to join the EU.

Gus

quote:

Originally posted by HR:
Today is the third anniversary of the war and the occupation of Iraq.
Any thoughts, regrets or just hopes for that sad ordeal?

Haim

Haim, I find this whole episode regrettable.
In my own mind there is only one reason the us and uk forces are there, if there was no oil in the equation we would not be having body bag after body bag coming back.
Forget all this talk of it is being done for the people of iraq, both governments do not give a toss about the people in iraq, they, the governments have one interest in being there, oil, that is it haim, take oil out of the factor and we are not there, no bodies being shipped back to the uk and your own country.
All the best.

Hi all!
You already know what i think.
Here in Italy the war between cultures is slithering through the lines of newspapers and politicians say they want to defend a not better known western primacy.
They use words like "family", "god", "freedom" and "affluence".
Words that a lot of us has forgotten in the meaning since a very long time ago.
I hope the people of the world will wake up and start using their own brain, switch off all the TVs and stop hoping in miracles.
Future is in the hand of good will people and i hope one day they will stand up.

Cheers
Gianluigi

quote:

What I don't understand is the obsession with keeping Iraq in one piece. Iraq was created after WW1 at the same time as Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. No one tried to keep them together. There are three distinct ethnic groups living in three geographic regions. What is wrong with self determination?

The breaking of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia was not nice to watch but could it be called self determination? I think not as quite a few external powers were in their from day pulling strings, fighting proxy wars and some would argue it is still not over.

quote:

There maybe some benefits. For instance Turkish Kurdistan could join Iraqi Kurdistan and a smaller more western Turkey would find it much easier to join the EU.

Looks good for Iraqi Kurdistan, looks good for Turkish Kurdistan but bad for Turkey as their borders will need to be redrawn, they will loose some of their land and they will have to acknowledge people who they have called terrorists in the past. Loss of land and a loss of face, not good for Turkey.

Splitting Iraq into three parts roughly along geographical or ethnic lines looks a winner from the secular pont of view but might not be welcom by some of the many religious leaders, just look at what is happening now in the name of religion. A question to ponder, what if the country was split into three and the oil rich south decided to move closer to Iran would this then be acceptable to the rest of old Iraq, the rest of the world or the USA?


Iraq,

quote:

"Well, first of all, it definitively proved the non-existence of WMD, which the UN inspection program could never have done

There actually is a valid point there. It's easy/convienient to forget the original problems and how things were to be dealt with. Iraq had been avoiding weapons inspections for a great many years and this contributed to the outcome, and Saddam must shoulder some blame. The situation was extremely difficult for Blair and I don't really know whether he knew about WMD or not, I suspect not, but the outcome is unforgivable. Bush & Blair should be out of power by now because of it and it illustrates how poor our political choices are now that there is no-one to challenge them outright.
In order to draw conclusions, all sides and facts have to be remembered and respected. Jumping on the bandwagon of comdemnation isn't constructive and trivialises the overall size of the problem with world peace that we and future generations now have to live with.
I don't think there is any justification for war that takes the innocent and public as victims, but that's easy to say here and now. Who knows what choices we might have to face in the future? There is no place for bold concluding statements and closed minds on the subject as the situation will continue to change and either we end up blindly following our already made up mind, we become hypocrites, or we weigh up each situation as it arises.
It seems to be forgotten that the UN option was closed to us when the French threw their toys out of the pram and made the UN impotent, and in my belief, that was Blair's safety net gone instantly. Without that action by the French, the conflict wouldn't have been brought on in the way that it did, but as usual, the French aren't a team player.
No, I don't support the war, but back then, with the facts we had at the time, I believed that there were good arguments on both sides. If people deny their position back then due to pride, then they are not only hypocrites, but illustrate that we don't have the conviction and resources to sort this out honourably.

It was never about WMD,9/11, keeping the country in one piece. It was/will continue to be all about the worlds want/need for oil,primarily for the good 'ole US of A. All else is window dressing. As many predicted, it all went v. badly wrong.Vietnam does spring to mind.The next time America invades somewhere, be it for genuine reasons, or under false pretences, no-one will support them (will they?)
matt.

If it was just about oil, the west would properly develop alternative fuels which we all know are there waiting to be marketed, except that the oil giants won't let us - yet. To provide vegetable based fuels for cars would destroy the economy and therefore power of the middle eastern countries overnight. I don't understand why the USA aren't doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
If it was just about oil, the west would properly develop alternative fuels which we all know are there waiting to be marketed, except that the oil giants won't let us - yet. To provide vegetable based fuels for cars would destroy the economy and therefore power of the middle eastern countries overnight. I don't understand why the USA aren't doing it.

According to Bush a couple of weeks ago they are doing it and he announced that very shortly they will be revealing to the stunned world their new technology. Personally I thnk he's full of crap. The war is about petro dollars. Check this disturbing link out Proposed Iranian Petro Bourse

quote:

[/QUOTE]

According to Bush a couple of weeks ago they are doing it and he announced that very shortly they will be revealing to the stunned world their new technology. Personally I thnk he's full of crap. The war is about petro dollars. Check this disturbing link out Proposed Iranian Petro Bourse

The real resons why Iran is next

the real resons for the war with Iraq

Interesting and worrying

Annexing Khuzestan; Battle-Plans for Iran Visit it (via Google Earth) why you still can! I think that the Proposed Iranian Petro Bourse is the one to watch.

Chaps

You sit here like a bunch of old women, whinging about the war etc.

If the invasion had not taken place, Saddam would still be in power and the atrocities which he would have committed would have been a damn sight worse than whats happened because of the war.

The people out there have now a decent chance of a democratic government and I just hope they do not waste their freedom by becoming a bunch of whinging windbags like some of you lot.

On the question of oil......what a load of bloody hypocrites you are. Security of oil is importance to the economy, your childrens future etc. You would all be moaning ( my God how you would moan )if petrol was rationed. Just remember that when you jump in a car or take a flight.

so accept the 1st lesson in life that you can rarely have your cake and eat it.

Regards

Mick

Here is an interesting short article from the Atlantic Magazine by Nir Rosen: 'If America Left Iraq'.


http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200512/iraq-withdrawal

Regards,

Haim

Mick is right about what the aims were concerning oil, but why can't governments be honest about that?

On the other hand I am not sure the plan is going to work, whatever the real aims were, given how hopelessly half-baked were the plans in the first place. One wonders how big a hole we have already dug for ourselves, or at least have been dug for us by our estemed leaders?

This is important for all developed (fossil fuel based) economies, but seemingly more for the US than any other.

As Europeans, would the UK be better off trying to consider how to manage a secure relationship with Russia, now that she is becoming such a major supplier of oil and gas to the West?

Fredrik

Goldman Sachs in conjunction with General Electric and others are pumping big money into the wind powered generation of electricity.

A New Gust Of Wind Projects In U.S.
Alternate Power: A Change Is In The Wind
GE renewables unit gets a favorable wind

It is a start and if the bean counters like the look of the investment then more cash will follow but iirc GE can't build any more for the moment because the order books for the next couple of years are already full! So will this flood of hot money cause any others to enter this market or not? The USA has lots of wind and Canada the tar sands, so between them they should be ok - if not then the storm clouds may not be all that far away.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
The people out there have now a decent chance of a democratic government

Ok guys!
Thread over for me!
See you somewhere else!

quote:

Originally posted by Roy T:
Annexing Khuzestan; Battle-Plans for Iran Visit it (via Google Earth) why you still can! I think that the Proposed Iranian Petro Bourse is the one to watch.

Roy,

I agree. I have mentioned this on a couple of threads but no one took it up - I KNOW British and American special forces have been covertly crawling over much of Khuzestan for some time looking for ways to secure their oil and refineries. Just like Iraq they are looking for any pretext to invade and it is not coincidense that the recent spat over Iran's alleged desire to develop nuclear power has taken on such significance. It was entirely predictable.

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
The people out there have now a decent chance of a democratic government

The problem is that democrasy only functions in a culture where electorate chooses as government prepared to hold new elections at the appropriate moment. I can see no real chance of that happening in Iraq, but then I am a pessimist. If he Kurds got autonomy, I think it is possible that they might operate a sort democrasy, but as a nation the Iraqis simply do not constitute a viable unit, and thus politics will remain an issue where voting is dominated by issues of differeing cultures rather than any possibility of voting on more subtle issues. It takes a large degree of consensus to make a democrasy function, and we all have to accept, even then, that a foreign democrasy will produce results we would not choose for ourselves, let alone begin to like or go along with...

To impose a democrasy on a culture not willing to take part of it, is no finer idea than the imperialism of the 18th. and 19th. centuries as practices by the then great European powers, including Great Britain, at least in my humble opinion.

All the best from Fredrik

Dear Mick,

'If the invasion had not taken place, Saddam would still be in power and the atrocities which he would have committed would have been a damn sight worse than whats happened because of the war.'

Complete nonesense - what is your evidense for this? Quantify your statement with figures and cite your source. If regime change was important to give freedom to the people of Iraq then why not invade other dictatorships, rogue states and comunist regimes?

'The people out there have now a decent chance of a democratic government and I just hope they do not waste their freedom by becoming a bunch of whinging windbags like some of you lot.'

Arab mentality is different from ours but we make so many assumptions about what they want or what will benefit them - the people of Iraq will have the vote maybe, but they will only ever (in the foreeable future)be able to vote for their dictator but let's not confuse that with democracy. It is tempting to think they have a real chance of peaceful democracy on say the British model but it is mistaken in my view. Warring factions will be the order of the day for many years.

'On the question of oil......what a load of bloody hypocrites you are. Security of oil is importance to the economy, your childrens future etc. You would all be moaning ( my God how you would moan )if petrol was rationed. Just remember that when you jump in a car or take a flight.'

It is not about oil per se but the petro dollar which is different. Since Bush came to power oil prices have rocketed. Bush is therefore part of the problem and not part of solution. Control of oil or rather propping up the petro dollar is about our lives and the lives of our children maybe but it is at the expense of other's lives and the lives of their children - in short we put ourselves before others and this causes all kinds of problems - as long as their is an 'us and them' in the world their will be conflict and the more we support this the more we are part of the problem and not part of the solution. I for one will not play this game and if I have to take a bus instead of drive a Range Rover (which I once had)then so be it. Please read the articles in the links Roy and I have provided and you may begin to see that all is not what it seems according to the propaganda handed down to us from on high.

Regards,

Erik

Fredrick

Democracy will flourish out there eventually after a few hicups because the young people use the internet, TV, mobile phones etc to receive and spread the word that the free market linked to democracy is the best way forward.

The times they are a changing and fortunately changing in the right direction.

Regards

Mick

Erik

Saddam could only be removed by force. He had been lying, breaking promises and playing games with the UN for 12 years whilst consolidating his postion by torture and death.

Giving in to dictators is not the best of ideas.

Anyway the deed has been done, with luck Saddam will soon be up against a brick wall and then Iraq and its people can move on.

As regards to oil security, your willingness to catch a bus is a most laudible gesture most factories would cease to function creating an economic slide.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Fredrick

Democracy will flourish out there eventually after a few hicups because the young people use the internet, TV, mobile phones etc to receive and spread the word that the free market linked to democracy is the best way forward.

The times they are a changing and fortunately changing in the right direction.

Regards

Mick

This may eventually prove true in China but not in Iraq, leastways not in the near future. Do you you think the mullahs and those who support them will allow this? All the different factions are lining up for the power struggle and who is to say another mad mullah or another Sadaam won't win it?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Erik

Saddam could only be removed by force. He had been lying, breaking promises and playing games with the UN for 12 years whilst consolidating his postion by torture and death.

Giving in to dictators is not the best of ideas.

Anyway the deed has been done, with luck Saddam will soon be up against a brick wall and then Iraq and its people can move on.

As regards to oil security, your willingness to catch a bus is a most laudible gesture most factories would cease to function creating an economic slide.

Regards

Mick

All of what you say here I agree with but that doesnt alter my views as previously stated. Persoanlly I don't think a good economy correlates to long term happines - quite the opposite in fact. The way the world economy works at present is that for every winner there are three exploited losers so long term it can't work as what goes around comes around. My thinking is out of the box I admit but I don't believe happiness comes from owning things and as such I admit I am in a tiny minority.