Where in the UK do you guys buy Naim?

1. scan hi-fi magazines
2. ring dealers
3. find out what they sold (nominally)
4. find out what they could dem. in reality
5. go through process of elimination

You may be able to eliminate some legwork by speaking to one of the "chains", either "Music at Home" (Audio T plus Audio Excellence) or Sevenoaks. The former were pretty good telling me what franchises their other branches had, and in one case setting up a dem at another branch. As you are in Hampshire you have probably exhausted this approach already. Wandering a little further, Grahams in London are seriously good, comfortably iconoclastic (one of the few dealers to have Shahinian) and have a really nice vinyl rack to tempt you while waiting. I believe Phonography in Ringwood also do Shahinian, which I loved. Unfortunately omestic pressures swung the decisions to Castle, which are dam' fine speakers anyway.

It's no consolation but getting comparative turntable dems is even harder. Let us know what happens.

I don't know who your 4 dealers are, but give Jeffries in Portsmouth a call. Their website normally has ex-demo and used kit for sale as well.

http://www.jeffries.co.uk/naim.html

If they haven't got it in Pompey, then they can bring it over from Brighton/Eastbourne. Last time I was in there just before xmas they had Naim kit in the demo room...... as well as a CD12! Suspect you might have to travel further east for extensive auditioning. It's where all the money is you know.

Phase 3 in Worthing, West Sussex are great. A year ago I wanted to change my speakers. I took all my Naim Gear to Phase 3 and was given a demo of 6 different speakers. I was given as much time as I wanted and played my own CD's. In fact I spent nearly 3 hours at the dealer, eventually elimating 5 speakers. My budget was up to £1400. I bought a pair of Celestion A2's and they are great.

You would need to pre book a dem like this so the dealer can set things up and give you the time you require.

Mark

Phonography
2 Star Lane
Ringwood
Hants
Tel: 01425 461230

fwiw, i am also an x-Grahams who now shops at Infidelity in Hampton Wick.

enjoy

ken

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It was my impression that everybody in the UK had dealers running around doing home demos, lending equipment and making fabulous trade in deals

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I thought that too, since we have such a dealer in Headingly, Leeds (Image Audio). It's a 4 1/2 hour drive from Southampton though

I now go to Image in Leeds like Jez and know they will go the extra mile to make sure my kit works as I want it.

I intend to stick with that dealer, being loyal to them and building a good relationship is always going to be reciprocated and worth a long journey in anyones money. I reckon if you get a good dem and service it is just as important not to suggest you are now going to go off and check another shop to try to save a few pennies.

Hope you find someone who gives you confidence and can share the enthusiasm.

Bruce

Phonography
2 Star Lane
Ringwood
Hampshire BH24 1AL
Tel: 01425 461 230

Oh, and I am sure I would have dealt with Larry from audioworks, if the shop was a bit closer. And there is also Frank Abela, very competent and nice guy.

Rather than having to listen to the opinions and theories of the dealer, you will be given demonstrations, and after that, it is over to you to decide how to spend your money.

I like their holistic approach to the art of reproducing your music collection.

Acoustica
114 Wolverhampton Road
Stafford
ST17 4AH

Tel: 01785 258 216

and

17 Hoole Road
Chester
CH2 3NH

Tel: 01244 344 227

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.

One Go to great lengths to attempt to hear the shortlist of components that you have put together yourself. Lets take speakers as an example (a subject close to my heart at the moment!). Ok, you definitely want to hear the obvious contenders: Credos, Katans, Neat Mystiques, Shahinian Super Elfs, Royd RR1s, and JM Labs 905s, plus you would also be quite interested in hearing a few others that have their ardent fans such as Harbeths or Spendors. So how the hell do you achieve this? It will certainly involve multiple dealers, multiple listening rooms, different dem equipment etc. This is obviously a totally non-ideal situation that in all honesty may tell you little. But what is the customer expected to do? It is a situation I am very familiar with, I still have nagging doubts about not managing to get a good dem of a Nottingham Analogue turntable when I bought my P9, though I did manage to get a good three way dem (LP12 / P9 / Gyro) by travelling half way across the country.

Two Find a dealer who you really respect both the results they get and their attitude to business. Trust them implicitly. This means taking a massive leap of faith and not attempting to hear all the options available - just choose the options they present you, which can often be very few. Assuming those options genuinely work for you (and this is the true art in selecting the right dealer), this option can be a winner.

Three Live almost entirely in the second hand market, and have a easy come, easy go approach to system selection - buy something on a hunch, and sell it again for the same money (or more!) if it does not do what you want. You loose nothing financially if you make a mistake, but you lack the guidance and support that the small minority of dealers that really know their stuff can offer.

Personally I use a combination of all three methods.

Tony.

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D) ALWAYS pay by cheque. At least you have 3 working days till it clears and you can stop payment, if necessary, during that period.

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I would NEVER accept a cheque from someone I did not know for a item of hi-fi or anything else for that matter! It’s a cash world, and the responsibility for checking equipment out lies firmly with the buyer prior to handing the cash over. There are no guarantees or refunds in this market believe me. This is why the prices are so low.

Don't be too worried with good quality and respected second hand kit. My buying guidelines are simple:

• Only buy equipment that is in absolutely mint condition, if the gear looks tatty or shabby I will walk away. I want the original shipping boxes too.

• Check it inside and out before handing over cash - any sign of unofficial modification walk away immediately.

• If it passes the above two points then listen to it. VERY carefully! If you suspect an issue either walk away, or budget on an immediate service (can still be a very good option with say Naim amps etc).

The hardest things to buy are probably CD players, they can have really odd intermittent faults. Turntables are pretty easy (listen to the main bearing though), but arms far harder, and I never consider I am paying for a cartridge in the price of a turntable. If a turntable is not in mint condition I assume it has probably been abused. Turntables deserve nothing less than worship from their owners. Amps and speakers are to my mind pretty easy to buy, they either work or don't, and if they don't it is usually pretty easy to do damage assessment.

I have never been stung buying second hand, though have always chosen very carefully.

Tony.

PS My list in the earlier post was not recommending any one of the possibilities over any of the others, as I say I use a combination of all three.

It pays to do extensive research but to make short-lists fairly short. This forum will provide many pointers but don't believe everything. For example, good ported speakers do exist.

I'll second Phonography in Ringwood, but I'd book the bigger room for dems.

Generally, if you don't like the house dem style tell them. If you want to listen to a whole CD on a system before changing that's your business.

If you want to listen to Shahinians, for example, in a place where they wheel out B&Ws, try both, and be confident about what your ears tell you.

I'd usually want cash for any second hand goods but not always. I've bought s/h kit from some fairly dodgy characters and managed to get away with it.

The ability to do a Naim serial number check is a God-send, but I bought a Hi-Cap with no number on the basis that if it worked (unmodified), it worked. Also I can't bear pratting about clearing cheques and the like. If someone looks honest I'll deal with them. I haven't been stung yet. Most people who buy and sell Naim are honest folk of great moral fibre and integrity.

I don't use an all Naim System. If I did, I would use all Naim cables. Any dealer working with Naim and trying to sell you very expensive cabling deserves suspicion.

When you think you've found what's right for you you must try it at home. If a dealer won't let you home dem then walk away. We are right to expect a lot from dealers but it works both ways. I would never use a dealer to decide what I wanted and then buy the lot second hand.

Its supposed to be a pleasure. It helps if you like your dealer; if you're being sold something by someone you don't like the pleasure evaporates fast no matter what the music sounds like. Equally, it is vital that the dealer likes the equipment you want to listen to. Just because he stocks it doesn't mean he has to like it.

Once you've made your decision stick to it and enjoy the system without looking over your shoulder at what else you could have done or not done: life's too short.

Sorry, as I said, just a ramble.

Alex

Simon

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Ok, let's say the amount is £500. All I do is get the seller to give me 5 cheques for £100 and write the card number, card guarantee limit and the expiry date on the back of each cheque. This is infallible because the issuing bank MUST honour the cheque even if the account holder has insufficient funds in their account, therefore, you can't lose.

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Surely this negates your original point, that the buyer can cancel payment if they are not happy. This is the point that as a seller I would not be prepared to accept. A cash deal from a private sale is final, simple as that. I would not accept gear back, God knows what they might have done to it!

I used to work buying and selling quite a bit of second hand gear including vintage synthesisers, and on very rare occasions a customer would bring something back for a refund that was very definitely not in the condition that it was originally sold, and make up some implausible story as to how it was my fault! As a (occasional) private seller I would simply not be prepared to allow anyone to stop a cheque on me and give me this kind of grief. It is just not worth the hassle. I would prefer to reject the sale if the buyer insisted on paying by cheque unless I knew them personally.

When selling stuff via mail order to people I don't know I cash the cheque, and only then ship the goods.

I've been pleasantly surprised with the honesty and integrity of the vast majority of hi-fi buyers and sellers though, that cheque from Alex didn't bounce after all…

Tony.

If the cheques have the same date this breaks the cards terms of use and the bank is not required to honour them. If the cheques are post dated and the first fails to clear the bank may then cancel the card and make the remaining cheques effectively worthless.

Which is all fairly obvious if you think about it (And if it isn't I shall spend the next week writing a million guaranteed £100 cheques payable to M Robinson and you won't here from me again until I get internet access on my yacht).

Matthew

How come this has suddenly become another bloody Mana vs. QS thread? It has been done to f***ing death. I am so bored of it, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP.

Max's question was where, not how.

Love

Simon

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Max's question was where, not how.

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Ok, point taken!

One problem is that Max has not provided a shortlist of speakers that he wishes to hear. Any half competent Naim dealer should be able to dem a CDX vs. CD5 through a 112 / FC / 150, and likewise be able to dem the Allaes against Intros, Credos or SBLs. The issues start when comparing against other brands.

For the record, my favourite dealer sound is to be had in the downstairs dem room at Audio Works in Cheadle (the upstairs room is to my ears a lot less good). I have never made a decision based on a dem here that I have been unsure of later. I would go as far to recommend the substantial journey necessary to get up there for a dem. I have absolute confidence that the AW crew can get all the above gear to work in their dem room very well, the only problem is if you desperately want to audition kit they don't stock.

Tony.

All hifi shops have limitations in terms of the stock they carry. Therefore, the dealers will stock items they think worth stocking. This decision is based on several things, but two of the most important are:

1. Sale viability. Will the item in question sell? Does it have a decent markup? Is its retail price cut to ribbons on the high street? Is the after-sales service likely to be good?

2. Stock compatibility. Does the item 'fit in' both sonically and aesthetically with the rest of the shop stock? Is it a natural blend with, or does it have unique features that endear it to, the majority of the products on sale in the shop?

However, although the shop may not stock all the 'interesting' items you may be after, it may have the werewhithal to obtain those items, either through other shops in the same chain, or through simply having an unofficial relationship with the manufacturer/distributor.

Naturally, the shop would point you toward their preferred option first since it's both their preferred solution and it's easier for them logistically in terms of making the sale. However, if you state a preference or interest, it's up to the shop to figure out if they can get the appropriate equipment in for you to listen to it. If they can't then such is life, but if they can, then you'll get to hear it. If the dealer is good enough, it's rare for them not to be able to get a hold of something - rare but not unknown.

The upshot of all this is that once you've identified a decent dealer (and a couple have been mentioned herein), then they should be able to hit at least some of the items on your list, and preferably most of them. Some patience is required since it may not just be a matter of walking in and seeing things on display, and you may require two or three demos to get to your final choice.

That said, this would give you a better appreciation of your final choice since you'll have heard the choice up against the other competition more than once. You only need your preferred option in each demo.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

david, couldnt agree more. the only situation where i felt i needed more choice was when i was in the mkt for a new cartridge, but then again, auditioning 4 cartridges in one go is quite tiring.

for electronics, my shortlist is very short indeed. i only buy naim.

and i agree with you, infidelity are one of the very good naim dealers...

enjoy

ken

I hope you never reply to one of my infrequent For Sale ads!

It's bad enough having to have a string of people ring up or e-mail for weeks (No, it sold on the first day..), let alone deal with a bunch of cheques which might bounce. Also putting up with the ,"I will definitely buy it, hold it until Saturday", to never hear from them again.

Most people are decent Hi-Fi fans, and deserve to be treated with respect, but there are timewasters about

Cash on the nail or walk away. Goes for both buyers and sellers.

David

Jefferies are good but not the same...

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Originally posted by David Slater:
Cash on the nail or walk away. Goes for both buyers and sellers.

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Heard of someone who followed these rules and ended up with a load of forged notes (actually, IIRC, here on the conference).

Probably a great way for dodgy characters to unload lots of notes at once.

Oh, and if they have forgeries on tap, maybe they'll have false driving licence, or someone elses, also?

cheers, Martin