To FlatCap or not to FlatCap???

Posted by: Surfing Alien on 22 July 2002

Hi all!

Next week I'll be checking out a Naim setup (NAC 112, NAP 150 & CD5) against my current Marantz CD-63 mk2 KI & PM-66SE KI. The speakers I use are Scan-Speak Reference Monitors, a DIY kit I build some 4 years ago. It's a 2-way system with the D2905/99000 Revelator & 18W/8546/01. In my opinion this is one of the best 2-way speakers available at a more than a reasonable price of € 560 each

I have no doubts whatsoever the Naim set will beat the Marantz hands-down, so probably there will be some € 4500 less on my savings account before not too long :-) Savings account is a stupid name anyway, don't you think?

I've heard that many of you use the NAC 112 and/or the CD5 with a FlatCap 2. I also heard that using one FlatCap2 used on both the NAC 112 and CD5 is actually less good then using it on a CD5 alone. As I understand, the FlatCap uses 2 independend power supplies feeded by one torriodal transformer with separated windings. Since all of this seems quite over-capacitated, I can't understand why it should have problems feeding two Series 5 components. Can anyone tell me why this is???

Also, I once read an article on building a preamp using batteries as power supply, incorporating a sophisticated loading mechanism. Using 2 times 20 1.2 volt batteries in series should give more than enough power to drive the analogue stages of a CD5 / NAC 112 for quite some time. And if you want things to be low-noise, this is as low-noise as you can get! Is there anyone out there who has some experience with this solution?

Thanks for your advice!

grtnx Peter

[This message was edited by Surfing Alien on MONDAY 22 July 2002 at 18:38.]

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Surfing Alien:

I
I've heard that many of you use the NAC 112 and/or the CD5 with a FlatCap 2. I also heard that using one FlatCap2 used on both the NAC 112 and CD5 is actually less good then using it on a CD5 alone. As I understand, the FlatCap uses 2 independend power supplies feeded by one torriodal transformer with separated windings. Since all of this seems quite over-capacitated, I can't understand why it should have problems feeding two Series 5 components. Can anyone tell me why this is???
--------------------------

I don't specifically remeber reading this, but having tried initially just NAIT5, for a few weeks, then adding the CD5 on to the recommended output on the fc2 (for a week), then finally just the CD5 into the main output I can vouch for it.
The The NAIT or the CDP on their own both sound much better (tho in a different way) than plugging both in. Go figure.
I will be getting another FC2.
Paul.
Looks like

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Phil Barry

You might also look for used FC1s or Hicaps.

Phil

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Arthur

Peter,

I wouldn't know as I did not try it. My understanding is that the "B" output of the FC2 is less than the "A" output - quality wise. But I can't imagine powering both from the FC2 is bad. I'm using it in this fashion, and it works great.

Nevertheless, I am going to try out adding a second FC2 as I have rather easy access to Naim equipment through my dealer. I am just curious to find out whether it does make such a difference.

As a side effect, adding another FC2 would enable me to power my Stageline from one of the FC2's rather than from the 112, albeit from the "B" output, so that I can continue upgrading.

But really, I'd say that you try it out yourself and be convinced by your own ears - there ain't no better judges around!

Arthur

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Surfing Alien

Hi Arthur!

Since my dealer is also a friend of mine, I could also try out a second flatcap... I have no doubts it would give a huge improvement, but I feel a little reluctant on spending some € 850 on a second PSU; surely you'll agree this is quit a high pricetag for something simple as a power supply no matter how carefull Naim builds these aparatus!

Keeping in mind that I for sure believe Naim is spending alot of time designing PSU's, I find it quite difficult to believe that the "B" output is actually of less quality than the "A" output.

Thanx on your comments!

Peter

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by J.N.

The F/C 2 is DESIGNED to power two items.

That's what makes it good v.f.m.

Sure; it's better just powering one item and a Hi-Cap is better still.

I use a F/C 2 to power a 32.5 pre-amp and a CD5, to good effect.

If you look on the back, you'll see that the 'B' output is a lower voltage than the main output. Received wisdom says feed the pre-amp with the 'A' output, but it's interesting to swap over.

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Surfing Alien

Hi J.N.!

quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
The F/C 2 is DESIGNED to power two items.

That's what makes it good v.f.m.

Sure; it's better just powering one item and a Hi-Cap is better still.

I use a F/C 2 to power a 32.5 pre-amp and a CD5, to good effect.

If you look on the back, you'll see that the 'B' output is a lower voltage than the main output. Received wisdom says feed the pre-amp with the 'A' output, but it's interesting to swap over.

Question: what does v.f.m. mean??

Problem is that I cannot understand the reason for Naim to use a lower voltage for the "B" output... Besides, the specs on the FlatCap2 mention 4 24V outputs (2 x 24V+ & 24V- ???). I'm getting confused here

Also, WHY should using two FC2 to power the CD5 & NAC 112 independently be "better" than using one FC2 for both; the two internal power regulators inside the FC2 are completely separated!!!

Thanks for your reply!

Peter

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Andrew L. Weekes

>Question: what does v.f.m. mean??

Value for money.

>Problem is that I cannot understand the reason >for Naim to use a lower voltage for the "B" >output...

It's due to the transformer used, which isn't a custom unit for the FC2, but the same as that used in other items. One of the windings has a lower voltage output hence the lower output voltage for the B output. The voltage makes no difference sonically (except on some old unserviced preamps where the relay circuit becomes noisy at low V.

>Also, WHY should using two FC2 to power the CD5 >& NAC 112 independently be "better" than using >one FC2 for both; the two internal power >regulators inside the FC2 are completely >separated!!!

That's because they are not totally isolated - they are all attached to the same transformer, and there is an element of interaction between them.

Personally though, I still feel you get best results using both o/p's to power the 112 and the CD5, but the B o/p to the CD5, it's fine for the low current drain of the CD5.

A.

Posted on: 22 July 2002 by Arthur

Peter,

Agree on the price tag (although it's € 890 already today). As I said, one of my reasons for adding one is to also power the Stageline from a FC2, so I'd continue to use the vfm of the FC2 able to power more than one box

My current layout is having both the 112 (on A o/p) and the CD5 (on B o/p) on one FC2 and that works great! I'm really happy with it.

Just give it try with one FC2. You can always upgrade later if you wish to do so.

Arthur

Posted on: 23 July 2002 by Surfing Alien

Hi all!

curious as I was on the subject on any disadvantages using one FC2 on two series 5 parts, I send an e-mail to Naim. This is their responce:

The Flatcap 2 was specifically designed to power 2 units. The Forum members sometimes make exaggerated claims regarding the effects of power supplies. There is no advantage in you using 2 Flatcap 2's in the system you describe. The ONLY part of the CD5 the Flatcap has influence on is it's output stage. One is enough.

I guess this is enough for me

gtnx Peter

Posted on: 23 July 2002 by bec143

Peter,

The answer you received from Naim is very much the same as the answer I recently received from Dave Dever (formally of Naim USA) on this forum, as well as as Email from NANA. I have a Hicap and and Flatcap, and was wondering if there is any real basis from a design standpoint as to which should power my CD5 and 112. In both cases I was told that the potential benefit to the cd5 is less because it only powers the relatively low power output stage.

There is a lot of opinion on this forum that favors putting the better PSU on the source, but to my ears I could never hear much difference between the Hicap and the flatcap on the cd5. I wonder if this is a bastardization of the source first principle, which in this case has been unfairly applied to the PSU on a CD5. In my system, the Hicap sounds better then the FC on my 112m so that's the way I keep it (except when I decide to change it!).

Bruce

Posted on: 23 July 2002 by garyi

On a vagualy unrealated issue.

I have read that the 82 can have two powersupplies, normally hicaps are used, could the flatcap2 be used to function as two powersupplies for the 82?

Also what is the two supplies for, I am assuming one for analouge one for digital ala NASPC?

would using a FC2 be worht while or completly pointless.

I own neither so am only interested,

Posted on: 24 July 2002 by Andrew L. Weekes

quote:
There is a lot of opinion on this forum that favors putting the better PSU on the source, but to my ears I could never hear much difference between the Hicap and the flatcap on the cd5. I wonder if this is a bastardization of the source first principle.

I think the problem is that the PSU powers so little of the CD5, that it makes less difference than a normal PSU addition, hence the improvement on the 112, where it has more opportunity to have an effect.

In a CD5 it powers just a few op-amps that form the output stage and filters, with a current drain of just a few milliamps. The op-amps are also a bit less sensitive to power supply variations than some discrete circuitry.

A.

Posted on: 19 August 2002 by karyboue

Some say in case of serie 5 to flatcap only the cd 5. I have tried this afternoon.
It appears that the cd 5 is more solid, more detailed pluged in output "A".
But the NAC112 + NAC150 unpluged from the flatcap seem to be flat and to me it gives nothing more than an analysing system. It lacks something. The flatcap 2 with the NAC/NAP on output "A" seems to me playing more music as it opens to a different sound in the low bass level creating some more ambiant, the system sings and swings dispite the fact that the treble range from the cd5 is not so sharp. But I like that "Naimy" sound.
I believe it is a choice of ears : analyse against music.
2 caps are the best choice.

Posted on: 19 August 2002 by Surfing Alien

Hi Folks,

I've been doing some testing myself on both the setup I borrowed from dealer and the FC2/NAP150/NAC112/CD5 got 2 weeks ago. My ears tell me Naim's right, so I use the FC2 on both NAC112 & CD5 connected Naim style. Connecting the FC2 output A on CD5 didn't sound right; I lack the correct words in audiophillic (?)focabulary to describe it.

I must confess I allmost regretted my purchase after I hooked up the apparatus; it really sounded like well... you know! After a week it started to really sound, and it just keeps getting better every day... Gheee, the stuff really takes time to break in!!!!!

Thanx!
Peter

Posted on: 19 August 2002 by Steve Toy

quote:
Into just the CD5 seemed more groovy/tuneful but a little rougher around the edges. The best thing is, you have the option to experiment and its a personal preference thing (I know that Steven Toy preferred just the CD5 powered in some blind listening tests at his dealer)

Yeah, I guess my earth is a little flat!

"His dealer?"

He was your dealer too!

Regards,

Steve.

Let your ears do the talking, let your remote control do the walking...