A fine little DAC

Dear Patrick,

I am sure that you are right that the PC situation [including MAC] is in flux, and that Naim are well advised not to chase the dragon of today's or even tomorrow's standard when no one has much idea what will be the standard the first week of of Lent next year!

SPIDF is not going away so let someone else worry about the Hifac USB or whatever, for computer audio users ...

What is also certain is that having not spent [i.e. borrowed] much money, I have a happy replay set that is not optimal for many here, in the sense that only the closest approach to perfection would do. I accept and can easily still enjoy less, so long as it get musical balances, articulation, and an approach to accurate timbres. Stereo and the Hifi lark can take a jump IMO as you know I think!

Bit tired, so off to hit the hay now, but God Bless!

ATB from George

George,

There is no doubt you have a good sounding source. I was quite happy with my M-audio Transit ($80) into the Beresford DAC ($180)..... until I heard the Naim DAC.

Is it 12 times better? Probably not. Does that mean the Naim DAC is not worth $3500? Nope. It certainly is worth it. (No one seems to get that these improvements come at a cost inversely proportional to their effects. And this is exponentially exacerbated the higher you go up the ladder.)

That said... if I end up without a Naim DAC for awhile (due to price), I will be satisfied by my humble Beresford.

If you cant afford the Naim DAC, do yourself a favor and DONT DEMO IT. It will kill you.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
George,

There is no doubt you have a good sounding source. I was quite happy with my M-audio Transit ($80) into the Beresford DAC ($180)..... until I heard the Naim DAC.

Is it 12 times better? Probably not. Does that mean the Naim DAC is not worth $3500? Nope. It certainly is worth it. (No one seems to get that these improvements come at a cost inversely proportional to their effects. And this is exponentially exacerbated the higher you go up the ladder.)

That said... if I end up without a Naim DAC for awhile (due to price), I will be satisfied by my humble Beresford.

If you cant afford the Naim DAC, do yourself a favor and DONT DEMO IT. It will kill you.

Dear Patrick,

If you look further up this page you will see that I was listening through a very grand Naim set [with my humble source] in comaprison to a CDS3, which though not being a discrete DAC, is still one of the best DACs made. My little arrangement was fine, but in direct comparison, not as fine!

The thought did not quite kill me, but I am old and stoical! That I wish on no one, least of all you, but it will come one day to each of us!

Great sharing a few words!

ATB from George

Not to be contrary ... but a couple of points ...

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
Secondly, you can easily bypass the OS on a Windows PC using ASIO, KS, WASAPI etc....

I think what you are actually meaning here is (on Windows) bypassing Direct Sound portion of the OS. KS and WASAPI are still part of the Windows OS, they just avoid the Mixer subsystems which is where any audio degradation takes place due to sample rate conversion, etc. ASIO is an alternative system created by a third party (i.e. not Microsoft) called Steinberg primarily to allow low latency interface between audio applications and hardware.

quote:

Just a guess though. Benchmark and Wavelength and many others have seemed to incorporate USB without degrading the sound over the other inputs. I dont know why Naim couldn't do it.

Just to be accurate, Wavelength's USB equipped DACs are exclusively USB input (no antiquated SPDIF inputs (to quote Wavelength's website). Benchmark DACs while having good USB implementation have often been commented to sound better via their SPDIF inputs.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:

Just to be accurate, Wavelength's USB equipped DACs are exclusively USB input (no antiquated SPDIF inputs (to quote Wavelength's website). Benchmark DACs while having good USB implementation have often been commented to sound better via their SPDIF inputs.

Eloise

Not quite. You can get the two higher end DACs outfitted with SPDIF. They do it. I read a review with some graphs at some point years ago. If anything they said the USB was better. But that just one persons view.

Yes, of course I meant the area of the OS that re-down-upsamples things and results in other than bit perfection.

Correct on the KS/WAS/ASIO... I was talking to George here if memory serves. Just trying to keep it simple.

thanks,
patrick

George and FF,

Just wondering if FF has tried any other low cost DACs on the kit. Not that the Aune isnt really good. Just wondering if other low cost DACs could possibly compete as well.

Perhaps source first isn't as strong as it used to be with turntables and early CDPs.

Curiously yours,
Patrick

Dear Patrick,

I can't speak for Frank, but the only cheapo DACs that I have tried out are the Muse and the aune. The Muse was a stab in the dark, and the aune was chosen after a little reading on a headphone forum, where it was mentioned from time to time.


For me the cost is important, but also rules out too much experimentation. Once I find something of a certain quality then I get happy and stop questing!

I suppose it might be reasonable to suggest that the aune will fit more naturally with my [currently absent] 72/Hi-cap/140 arrangement than with Frank's top line system. I imagine that his veteran other set will be well matched like my old style set in reality. The aune is not dogged with a very digital-esque style of presentation, but has a rather listenable and fluid presentation that is not so different from LP at its best, but without the insoluble problems of pitch stability, surface noise, and short sides that LPs bring, even disregarding expensive stylus wear or "fluff on the needle!"

By the end of the year this little set will power SBLs of late vintage and in great condition. I also have a Rotel 850 A tuner, which means till FM is withdrawn, I have all the quality radio I could ask for as well.

The iTunes method of selecting the music to listen to is addictive. Never has my listening ranged so far and wide through my collection of recordings, as searching some of say four minute piece as track x of some rarely played disc, which must first be found is much more of an impediment than simply typing in some search word or two!

I am looking forward to getting the little set running through SBLs!

But I am not currently searching for something better.

I imagine that MAC and Windows will develop more refined audio players in the future so things on the computer end will continue to improve.

Reading here, I would be tempted to try out the Weiss with fire wire to a super specified MAC, but will not unless I could afford to implement it!

ATB from George

After finally getting round to using Spotify, i've ordered one of these USB DACS for my work laptop.



Not quite a Weiss but it should be a step up on the computer itself

James

James, that looks a dinky little unit! Let us know here how you get on with it! I think there is quite a selection of these little USB type DACS about.

Best of luck with it! May I be cheeky and ask the price? Don't answer that if you don't want to, though ...

ATB from George

Hi George - It's £85 from Mr Andrews in Cumbria so i'm looking forward to having a play with it on Monday. I'll let you know.

james

I'l keep my eyes peeled!

ATB from George

I borrowed one of these for a few days and am mightily impressed.
I didn't think I would be, but I am.
It's not a Naim DAC, but for the money it is exceptional.

Using an iMac with OS9 outputting through USB in to the DAC and from there in to a Nait5i and Allaes. It is almost as good as the Rega Apollo that I have available to compare it with - which is quite something.

Dear ROTF,

I may be a proper old skin-flint, and I have to be with two lovely old bikes to care for, but the result from a cheapo USB DAC are startling. In my view they give pause for thought over the VFM of junior [from great makers like Naim and Rega] CD players, and that is saying something considering cost difference.

Perhaps you will set up a second system with such a device, and get hooked on the joys of accessing music with the keyboard and the click of a mouse, even yet!

Best wishes from George

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:


I borrowed one of these for a few days and am mightily impressed.
I didn't think I would be, but I am.
It's not a Naim DAC, but for the money it is exceptional.

Using an iMac with OS9 outputting through USB in to the DAC and from there in to a Nait5i and Allaes. It is almost as good as the Rega Apollo that I have available to compare it with - which is quite something.

I quite liked the look of that, too. Not heard it, though.

It is limited in what it can do, but that is a good thing IMHO. You can plug a computer in using a USB cable and use its analogue outputs in to your amplifier or headline or Stax energiser. Or, and I haven't tried this because I don't have an iPod Touch or fancy phone, you can use Bluetooth to get music in to it. There is no S/PDIF in or out.

All I can report is that with an old iMac running an out of date OS, this little device makes great music. It doesn't resolve every last detail, but it seems to have a cohesive sound that lets you concentrate on the music. Is it the best DAC in technical terms? I doubt it. Does it let you enjoy what you are listening to? Most definitely.

If you just want to upgrade the output from your computer then it works a treat. It probably works just as well with a phone. A very fine product IMHO from Maidstone in the county of Kent.

If you want to add it to a DVD/CD transport forget it - it won't work - but then it is not designed to do that.

The picture is red, but the one I have borrowed is black so it doesn't look out of place with Naim gear.

Well its here



Its tiny but nicely put together. Installation is a breeze. Plug in the supplied USB cable to the computer, the front panel LED goes Red, the driver is installed automatically, the LED goes green and er, that's it. It drives my Etymotic ER4-S phones with ease so i can now put my Rega Ear headphone amp onto other duties.

Out of the box its very bright, but this calms down after an hour or so. Compared to the computer soundcard, a layer of haze is removed and acoustics and small vocal inflections reveal themselves. Bass is more tuneful and tighter. For £85 its a no brainer.

There's more though. Out of the box the DAC powers itself from the USB port of the computer but it can take a seperate 5v supply...



A little switch at the back selects between USB or external power.

I had a variable linear DC supply knocking around in my desk at work so after 10 mins in the lab knocking up a suitable cable, it's now running in true Naim tradition with a big Power supply. Now that's more like it - blacker background and bass deepens.

So to sum up, a nice addition to my (work) desk system and even better with a external PSU.

James

James,

So it is a USB headphone amp.... correct?

-patrick

Yep.

the best cheap dac must be the cambridge

Dear James,

Sometimes the very small enclosures used on these things - like your USB headphone DAC/Amp and the "aune" - do not allow for the Power Supply to be housed inside the case.

This is nothing but a good thing, and paradoxical that the very economy that makes these small and fitted in tiny cases actually brings an advantage we associate with the high end of Naim components!

Strange old world really.

Dear All,

It is nice to read of the variety of small DACs that work well. Thanks for your posts here, as I am sure that many will find their way to computer audio this way. I would not have believed what could be done from a computer at such a price point without getting the two I did - the Muse, and the "aune" - and I am delighted. It seems to me that the results are more pleasing than CD players costing hundreds of "£s" if not thousands! {:¬)

Enough quality for me to be entirely satisfied each day with the replay. Using iTunes has been a wonderful thing for me as the display when set as a list - and I appreciate that the pop album is a different thing to a piece of classical music, which may be several CDs [of LPs] long, or only a few minutes - means that I can instantly access anything of which I have a recording with equal ease, and the greatest of ease as well! This has resulted in me ranging through every aspect of my recorded music, even things that are a real off-put to find such as a short piece contained in a multi-CD album!

A wonderful development, and no longer am I tied to those ghastly bits of black shellac, vinyl, or the almost as unpleasant plastic silver coloured disc CDs with their dreadful cases, sleeves, and monstrous artwork and trite notes.

What a release! All that is left is the music!!!

ATB from George

For anybody interested the Chordette Gem DAC sounds even better using Bluetooth than it does through its USB connection; which is wonderful if you hate wires. You just need your MacBook Pro in the same room as the Gem and it works. I would say using Bluetooth it is on a par with the Rega Apollo or CD5i. I'm sure it would work with other computer systems too, but I haven't got Bluetooth of my Amiga so I can't try that. You can also use internet radio on the MacBook Pro too and the Gem plays it. So this little Gem eliminates the need for the HiFace or similar and no need to even think about Firewire - so if considering the cost that needs to be factored in. This DAC is a lot better than one beginning with "L", IMHO, of course. No headphone capability though - you need to add a Stax energiser and ear-speakers or headline + other cans if you prefer.

ROTF,

The Mac can stream lossless via Bluetooth? Or is it in someway transcoding it to MP3? I would be very surprised if it could stream full WAV files via BT.

thx
patrick

I have a Firestone Audio Fubar II (USB DAC) and a Supplier (PS) which together cost under £200 from Russ Andrews who also supplied the cables to link my iMac with the Nait XS.

The difference these two tiny boxes make to the sound directly out of a mac for so little money is phenomenal!

The files were stored as WAV. I have Tiger on the Mac and something called Audio Gateway with A2DP; I also have some apt-x developer software, which I got through darwin ports. I've had it on the Mac for over a year and only ever used it once with some wireless cans, which were horrible.

However, I clicked the little music icon on the top bar and there on the drop down menu was the Chordette. I selected it and entered the pin and it worked.

I understand all this stuff is built in to snow leopard and there are some you tubes of people using it. However, some say Apple's BT is a bit flaky so perhaps Audio Gateway still has a role though I'm not sure it is still supported.

However, I tried moving the mac away from the Chordette Gem and it didn't like it too much - I guess it is distance dependent. I also tried hi-res with the Chordette, but gave up - reverted to USB and it still didn't work - oh well that's computer audio for you.

I'd like to hear its big brother: the Quarter Deck, but that costs more than the nDAC so not really for this thread.

However, if you just want a nice simple little DAC that sounds as good as reputable CD player and you don't need S/PDIF and might want to use it wirelessly with an iPad or something then this is well worth a look (and listen).

Just found out Sennheiser make an apt-x BT dongle that could be used - still my loaner goes back tomorrow.