Answer to Big Brother

Dear Cheese,

If one reads the accounts of Peter Hayward on Otto Klemperer's life in his massive two volume biography, you will get a flavour of artistsic life in the Nazi Reich. If you ready the six volume history that WS Churchill wrote about the Second World war you will get a picture of Nazism and the conduct of the War among many other things.

If you read Furtwangler's own writings you will get a picture of his own view of his position - the writing runs throughout the Nazi period, as well asa before and after...

If you read Kennedy on Boult, you will get Boult's view and possition as the senior musician working in Britain at the time.

If one makes sure one reads at least one countering account of each of these and in fact all other releveant historical events you only deepen and cont4extualise the understanding...

I think you may perhaps be getting the picture. I am not 100 years old, but it is certainly all our jobs to understand history. If that leads to a fall-out in terms of artists like Furtwangler, where their behaviour has been so morally questionable that one can no longer respect them so be it. I could admire Mengelberg, but I don't. I could admire Ely Nee, but I don't. I could be more easy about Karajan, because I have read enough for me to believe that his Nazi Party Membership was essential for a young up and coming artist.

Furtwangler was entirely different. By 1933, he had already been chief conductor of the BPO for eleven years. He could have left Germany in the early days and made it very tough for the Pro Mi to use his name as some sort of Totem or Icon, and he may therefore actually have shown those less in the know than he ceraianly was, just how monsterous was their government. His alegance to such odious monsters, when based on nothing more than wanting to keep Karajan out of the job with the Berlin Phil and over weaning self-estieme and pride, at whatever moral cost, show Furtwangler to have been one of the morally weakest artists of the Twentieth Century. That his late performances then go on to show how a human can repent and and mature into something truly worthy may warrant a certain degree of admiration.


But apologists for Nazism and also for Furtwangler's Nazi links, will get short schrift from me on any occasion.

Sincerely, Fredrik Fiske

For me it's not a question of going back 100 years and judging anyone, my objection to Furtwangler begins on a level of not liking what he does to music. THEN there is a question of why would I object to his musical judgments when his judgments in nearly every other field are suspect. You can't separate the creator from the creation.

Look at what the Nazi's thought of as decadent art in 1938, nearly a who's who of what we now consider the great painters of the 20th century. Their aesthetic judgments were as lousy as their moral ones.


BB

Further thoughts concerning artists working in Totalitarian conditions:

Rostropovich is one example of a Soviet artists at the top of the tree who fell out of favour for his blunt honesty. It is possible to stand for moral rectitude. Casals did in Fascist Spain, and he Busch brothers did in Nazi Germany, Furtwangler and Mravinsky in their respective situations chose not too.

I tend to think that not only is a judgement possible, but however uncomfortable it may be, it becomes inevtable, eventually.

After all what was saurce from Rostropovich surely also was for Mravinsky in USSR, and what was saurce for the non-Jewish Busch brothers [Fritz, Adolf, and Hermann] was also saurce for Furwangler...

Nothing would induce me to buy any of the fabled Mravinsky Tchaikowsky recordings for example for this very reason.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:

But apologists for Nazism and also for Furtwangler's Nazi links, will get short schrift from me on any occasion.

I presume, Fredrik, that you didn't mean me here, did you ?

There may be specific reasons why you are so touchy about that topic, you're entitled to them and it's not my business. Nonetheless, the way you wrote the quoted sentence suggests that you are dead sure about Furtwangler's Nazi links. As those have been and are still subject of heated debate among historians, I consider that some doubt remains.

As a result, there is little reason for me to use the 'guilty' stamp for Furtwängler and if no-one here objects to it, I shall enjoy my next listening session to Furty's 5th the same way I always did. Now let's have a look at the music place.

Enjoy the Beethoven Fifth led by Furtwangler by all means. i definate am not calling you an apologist for Nazism.

In fact my original reply to you was in direct response to you addressing as follows [from the Beethoven Symphony Thread in the Music Room]:

Posted Sat 12 May 2007 20:54
"Fredrik,

"I am somwhat surprised that you didn't mention Furtwänglers wartime recordings of 5 and 7, so I copied this post I wrote earlier on ZG."

Though you may be prepared to debunck each and every book or other source I have investigated, but with careful counter-weighting from alternate angles, I do think we can get close to the truth in history.


One of the most fascinating books I came across in relation to Furtwangler was his own: "Notebooks 1926-1954." It is rather revealing of his own perception of the situation, and disarmingly self-incriminating.

Regardless of whether we shall agree on this, I posted this earlier on the other Thread. It is pertinent.

"... I, like you, twenty years ago had a fascination with Furtwangler's musicianship, but eventually was robbed of my admiration of his work on two grounds. One was the realisation that his musical approach is possibly seen as a sledge hammer to crack a nut, and as I got older I found more satisfaction from the subtle inner logic of such artists as Klemperer, and Boult, to mention just two, and also my ongoing fascination with history, which eventually undermined Furtwangler, Mravinsky and others in my affections as well.

"I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but as you know I have been going along this road for a long time. Perhaps if I had taken someone with me at each stage they would still disagree with me, but perhaps not.

"I like this place for the general ability to disagree without rancour!

"Kindest regards fromn Fredrik"

I don't have an especial depth of dislike only for Furtwangler's approach to standing up for right, but as the senior conductor still working in Nazi germany, I think even as late as 1943 or 1944, he could have actually have really made a difference for good had he chosen to leave on one of his many visits to Sweden. By the time he escaped having been tipped off not to return to Berlin from Vienna [in Jan 1945] for the sake of his own life, he really had left it too long. That he was surprised by subsequent events shows him to have been blind to the realities and their potential to be view from a different viewpoint to his own.

Not knowing Jews were encascerated in Concentration camps? His physician was a Jew who had to be brought out of the care of the authorities to doctor him, at least until the guy died. I reference the book "The Devil's Music Master" [Sam Shirakawa, Oxford University Press] for this nugget, which the rather pro-Furtwangler author states is an example of Furtwangler's bravery in the face of the evil all round him.

Far braver would have been Furtwangler seeking Asylum in Sweden, and proclaiming to the World what he knew was going on. But his career and position was more important to him than taking a stand as the Busch brothers did very much earlier on. Fritz Busch was at the time being offered to job of Director of the Berlin state Opera by Goering, when they all quit Germany! The Busches were "Nazi approved artists!" They knew what was the right thing to do, and did it at considerable personal cost, in terms of loosing established successful careers and ultimately financially as well. It is not hard to see that the judgement call at the time was both real and one based on the moral code of the individuals concerned. I respect people who stand up for right. If no one stands against evil, it wins by default...

Kindest regards from Fredrik

I think Furtwangler looked after no.1 in very difficult circumstances - he thought the Nazis would win and so he supported them - (whether he really agreed with them is open to debate)either way he is culpable and lacked spine. The Nazis happened because people stood by and let them happen and some supported them without actually breaking any laws but they supported those who did, Furtwangler is such a man imo. However does that mean we should not enjoy his musical legacy? If he had developed a cure for cancer would we refuse it because he supported the Nazis?

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:

Not knowing Jews were encascerated in Concentration camps? His physician was a Jew who had to be brought out of the care of the authorities to doctor him, at least until the guy died.

Now surely, this HAS to have been an awkward scene :


Doc:

(cough...couggh) umm... well Dr. Furtwangler everything seems to be in order, you're tests were all negative and, unless I miss my guess, you should live to be a ripe old age.

Furtwangler:

"Thanks Doc ! Boy I feel like a million, so...how you been doing doc ? Lost some weight I see... Sooo... hows the family ? .. Oh...erm sorry... I guess I heard about them...uhhmm ...Well doc..ermm steer clear of the gas chambers and I guess see you in 6 mos....."



BB

Acad

I think I agree with about 75 % of your statement. Furtwangler was looking after No 1, no doubt about it.

I think what's is missing here, in some of the replies to Fredrik, is the understanding that he has made his decision for personal reasons and is not suggesting anyone follow his lead.( at least as I read it, correct me if I'm wrong)

Suppose you bought an ipod for ten dollars and the next day you discovered it was stolen, could you go on listening to it with pleasure ? Most people would have no problem with this. For some, the pleasure of the music would be vitiated by the circumstance of aquiring it, a view that is to be commended in my opinion. They might choose to give away said player and start again by buying their own properly. We all have to make choices based on our own basis of what feels right and no one else's.


BB

BB,

Fair enough. I don't really have strong views on this - I read Fredrik's posts and I agree with every word and then I read someone else's and find my self agreeing with them too and then I read another from Fredrik and I am back to square one. I don't know enough about Furty or his circumstances. Your ipod analogy is a good one. I am still to make my mind up about all of this.