formats
Posted by: stevebt on 20 February 2003
Hello People,
What are we to make of the recent Hi-Fi press and their obsession with the supposed superior formats DVD-A and SACD. All I read is how terrible CD's are and how wonderful these new one's are. Is it all a marketing ploy? Is any new purely CD only machine a foolish notion because any cheap multi-channel player is bound to be better because the new formats are intrinsically better? Alternatively why should I spend lots on the new CDS3 rather than a so called universal player?
What are we to make of the recent Hi-Fi press and their obsession with the supposed superior formats DVD-A and SACD. All I read is how terrible CD's are and how wonderful these new one's are. Is it all a marketing ploy? Is any new purely CD only machine a foolish notion because any cheap multi-channel player is bound to be better because the new formats are intrinsically better? Alternatively why should I spend lots on the new CDS3 rather than a so called universal player?
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by stevebt
Your reply has cheered me up a lot!!! However why don't Naim drop a nice big hint that a universal machine is indeed on the way, and at reasonable price. That way I can start saving.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by JohnMak
Cyrus already have one. Has anyone heard it???
I would be interested in a balanced comment/opinion from anyone living in the UK.
I would be interested in a balanced comment/opinion from anyone living in the UK.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by Mr Underhill
Stevebt,
I think there is a news item in this month's Hi-Fi News - Linn are planning to release a universal player in the near future.
I've read a couple of articles recently stating the CD mastering has improved over the years. How long will it take to master the new formats?
Personally I still think my turntable beats any CD I've heard; but system choice may well be a strong factor in this.
I'm going to wait and see how the SACD / DVD-A battle pans out.
I think there is a news item in this month's Hi-Fi News - Linn are planning to release a universal player in the near future.
I've read a couple of articles recently stating the CD mastering has improved over the years. How long will it take to master the new formats?
Personally I still think my turntable beats any CD I've heard; but system choice may well be a strong factor in this.
I'm going to wait and see how the SACD / DVD-A battle pans out.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by Mike Hanson
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Underhill:
I've read a couple of articles recently stating the CD mastering has improved over the years. How long will it take to master the new formats?
....
I'm going to wait and see how the SACD / DVD-A battle pans out.
The mastering problem was one of digital versus analog. With analog mastering, you often "saturate" a signal to get it to sound best, as the tape provides a natural compression. With the digital format, saturation doesn't exist, and attempting it produces very undesirable results.
Due to the "danger" of saturation, many mastering engineers left the final digital signal too low for safety and efficiency's sake, rather than spend the time to get it as high as possible. Then when it seemed too quiet, they would compress the hell out of it, resulting in an over-compressed, low volume, low resolution CD.
Now that they've got more experience with digital, along with better tools, recent CDs have been much improved. I expect that because SACD and DVD-A are also digital formats (albeit with a different resolution and sample rate), the lessons learned over the past twenty years with CDs will be applied equally well to these new formats.
With regards to the staying power of the new formats, it is more of a marketing situation than anything else. Because DVD-A has "DVD" in its name, it will win. SACD will be around for a little while more, but will eventually disappear. Supposedly SACD is better than DVD-A, but this doesn't matter. (Remember Beta vs. VHS?)
In the end, it doesn't really matter. My CDS2 sounds plenty good enough for me, and it consistently embarrasses my Rega P3. Vuk thinks I'm nuts, and has offered to come over and figure out what's wrong with my setup. We'll see if he can help it...
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Refinement v new technology
The LP has had what, 150 years of refinement?
Still operates on the original Edison principal.
Most who have experienced a well set up vinyl front end agree that it is better than CD.
The music industry is complaining about file sharing and piracy. The consumers are complaining about copy code protection.
No one had any of these concerns when vinyl was THE primary format. This is refered to as progress.
The LP has had what, 150 years of refinement?
Still operates on the original Edison principal.
Most who have experienced a well set up vinyl front end agree that it is better than CD.
The music industry is complaining about file sharing and piracy. The consumers are complaining about copy code protection.
No one had any of these concerns when vinyl was THE primary format. This is refered to as progress.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
The music industry is complaining about file sharing and piracy.
quote:
No one had any of these concerns when vinyl was THE primary format. This is refered to as progress.
really? So why do my lp sleeves have anti-piracy messages on them?
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
John - don't know! I've got thousands of LP's.
Not that I'm going to check, but none that I recall have any mention of piracy.
Let's see you take one, rip it, upload it as mp3.
Not that I'm going to check, but none that I recall have any mention of piracy.
Let's see you take one, rip it, upload it as mp3.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Shedlock:
John - don't know! I've got thousands of LP's.
Not that I'm going to check, but none that I recall have any mention of piracy.
here's one on the sleeve of Jimi Hendrix - The singles:
"HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC AND IT'S ILLEGAL"
quote:
Let's see you take one, rip it, upload it as mp3.
well it's not that hard. Go from the tape out of your pre to the input of your soundcard. Then proceed as normal, albeit a little slower than with cd.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Hey, you've got me there, I don't own a single Hendrix album (or CD).
Also, I was being facitious on uploading, I not only know it's possible, I have the technology to do it.
The digital copy code argument here in the States is most often centered on one being able to make perfect copies of the original, since it's all digital to begin with.
Interesting that the Grateful Dead used to encourage recording their shows and oftem made access to the equiptment available.
Since a tape of an album is less than the original, it's not piracy. This also goes back to the Sony v Disney case decades ago and is something I've covered before in the Padded Cell.
Changing demographics and a dearth of good artists is killing the music industry, at least as I see it.
Also, I was being facitious on uploading, I not only know it's possible, I have the technology to do it.
The digital copy code argument here in the States is most often centered on one being able to make perfect copies of the original, since it's all digital to begin with.
Interesting that the Grateful Dead used to encourage recording their shows and oftem made access to the equiptment available.
Since a tape of an album is less than the original, it's not piracy. This also goes back to the Sony v Disney case decades ago and is something I've covered before in the Padded Cell.
Changing demographics and a dearth of good artists is killing the music industry, at least as I see it.
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
Since a tape of an album is less than the original, it's not piracy.
the same could be said of mp3s...
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Probably should be said, I find them unlistenable. MP3 did not exist at the time of the disney/sony case.
Oh yeah, can you make me a copy of the Hendrix?
Oh yeah, can you make me a copy of the Hendrix?
Posted on: 21 February 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
Oh yeah, can you make me a copy of the Hendrix?
if only I had the cables...
but I'm sure you'll find it online already
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Peter C
Bob
MP3 is not perfect, but it is a lot better soundwise than a cheap transistor radio or internet radio.
If you find MP3 unlistenable, it makes me wonder about the sound quality of your PC setup.
I don't mean that in a derogatory way because as a Naim user you're well aware of good sound quality. The standard soundcard and speakers supplied with a PC are not up to the job of reproducing Music properly.
I listen to MP3 through a 72/hicap/140/Ruark Sabres set up and have no problem listening to them.
-----------------------------------------
MP3 killing music, I disagree.
Cassette taping didn't kill music and neither will MP3. In fact I feel MP3 allows Music to be heard, much in the same way as radio airplay. A lot of smaller artists are able to put MP3 tracks on the net and have there music heard. As a result there is more music out there to listen to than ever before.
I've bought albums on the strength of hearing MP3 tracks I liked.
-----------------------------------------------
"The music industry is complaining about file sharing and piracy. The consumers are complaining about copy code protection."
I agree with your comment, its the music industry winging because they are losing revenue to pirates. Whilst I don't agree with pirating, why should most people who are not involved in this illegal activity be penalised by copy code protection.
The world area coding of DVD also is ridiculous because CD and LP never had that problem, so why should any other format be handicapped that way.
I have brought back LP's and CD's from my travels over the last 20 odd years, but I see no point in bringing back DVD's to the UK if I cant play them
MP3 is not perfect, but it is a lot better soundwise than a cheap transistor radio or internet radio.
If you find MP3 unlistenable, it makes me wonder about the sound quality of your PC setup.
I don't mean that in a derogatory way because as a Naim user you're well aware of good sound quality. The standard soundcard and speakers supplied with a PC are not up to the job of reproducing Music properly.
I listen to MP3 through a 72/hicap/140/Ruark Sabres set up and have no problem listening to them.
-----------------------------------------
MP3 killing music, I disagree.
Cassette taping didn't kill music and neither will MP3. In fact I feel MP3 allows Music to be heard, much in the same way as radio airplay. A lot of smaller artists are able to put MP3 tracks on the net and have there music heard. As a result there is more music out there to listen to than ever before.
I've bought albums on the strength of hearing MP3 tracks I liked.
-----------------------------------------------
"The music industry is complaining about file sharing and piracy. The consumers are complaining about copy code protection."
I agree with your comment, its the music industry winging because they are losing revenue to pirates. Whilst I don't agree with pirating, why should most people who are not involved in this illegal activity be penalised by copy code protection.
The world area coding of DVD also is ridiculous because CD and LP never had that problem, so why should any other format be handicapped that way.
I have brought back LP's and CD's from my travels over the last 20 odd years, but I see no point in bringing back DVD's to the UK if I cant play them
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Peter - You have sound on your PC!!!?
All kidding aside, I don't use my computer for music. Mostly photo editing and writing.
When I bought a lap top it came with free downloads for 30 days. I downloaded TMBG albums and found them atroucious on the Naim.
A friend tried to copy a badly damaged Joan Armstrong disc on his system and ended up converting the file format. I use that disc to prevent coffee stains.
[This message was edited by Bob Shedlock on SATURDAY 22 February 2003 at 10:40.]
All kidding aside, I don't use my computer for music. Mostly photo editing and writing.
When I bought a lap top it came with free downloads for 30 days. I downloaded TMBG albums and found them atroucious on the Naim.
A friend tried to copy a badly damaged Joan Armstrong disc on his system and ended up converting the file format. I use that disc to prevent coffee stains.
[This message was edited by Bob Shedlock on SATURDAY 22 February 2003 at 10:40.]
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Peter C
Very witty, how do you listen to MP3?
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by DAVOhorn
A few words on the topic of formats.
I have Vinyl
CD
DVD
DVD Audio
SACD both stereo and multi channel
FM Stereo
Cassette Tape
Out of all of the above it is my considered opinion that when the software is of very high quality then i would say SACD Stereo is the highest quality format.
The pricing of SACD discs is improving and the catalogue is expanding. What is most gratifying is that it is the smaller specialist labels that have the best recording techniques that have adopted DSD and SACD.
I am not overly convinced by multi channel formats for music only reproduction. But if you are watching a live concert on DVD then multi cannel does add to the experience.
At this time i am listening to a cd on my pc in glorious crappytronic sound . It does the job but is not music.
regards David
I have Vinyl
CD
DVD
DVD Audio
SACD both stereo and multi channel
FM Stereo
Cassette Tape
Out of all of the above it is my considered opinion that when the software is of very high quality then i would say SACD Stereo is the highest quality format.
The pricing of SACD discs is improving and the catalogue is expanding. What is most gratifying is that it is the smaller specialist labels that have the best recording techniques that have adopted DSD and SACD.
I am not overly convinced by multi channel formats for music only reproduction. But if you are watching a live concert on DVD then multi cannel does add to the experience.
At this time i am listening to a cd on my pc in glorious crappytronic sound . It does the job but is not music.
regards David
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Peter, I never wrote that MP3 was killing the music industry, if indeed you were attributing that to me.
I take no offense or find your remarks about the (lack of) sound quality on my pc derogatory.
I guess I just don't see the computer as a music medium.
I take no offense or find your remarks about the (lack of) sound quality on my pc derogatory.
I guess I just don't see the computer as a music medium.
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
MP3 is not perfect, but it is a lot better soundwise than a cheap transistor radio or internet radio.
well that's saying a lot.
quote:
If you find MP3 unlistenable, it makes me wonder about the sound quality of your PC setup.
not unlistenable on a pc but they're far from good
quote:
I listen to MP3 through a 72/hicap/140/Ruark Sabres set up and have no problem listening to them.
How can you do this??? Playing them through a hi-fi is where you discover just how bad they are...
quote:
A lot of smaller artists are able to put MP3 tracks on the net and have there music heard. As a result there is more music out there to listen to than ever before.
I've bought albums on the strength of hearing MP3 tracks I liked.
I think this is what record companies are really worried about - loss of control
quote:
The world area coding of DVD also is ridiculous because CD and LP never had that problem, so why should any other format be handicapped that way.
I have brought back LP's and CD's from my travels over the last 20 odd years, but I see no point in bringing back DVD's to the UK if I cant play them
that's exactly why they do it.
Here's one example for you: DVDs of a certain BBC tv series sell here for £20 as they know UK shoppers will pay that much for a dvd. The same DVDs cost £10 in Australia and that's after they've shipped it there. Without region coding their profiteering wouldn't work anywhere near as well. Buy yourself a multiregion dvd and shop online.
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
DVD & Zones - The argument put forth by the Hollywood attorneys is that movies released in the States hit overseas domestic markets prior to theater releases, thereby preventing them from recouping the profit.
I've always wondered if that is true or not.
Do movies take that long to play over there?
I've always wondered if that is true or not.
Do movies take that long to play over there?
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by John Sheridan
quote:
I've always wondered if that is true or not.
Do movies take that long to play over there?
yes, there can be several months difference in movie release dates between countries - especially those that need to be released in school holidays.
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Peter C
Bob
"HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC AND IT'S ILLEGAL"
I wasn't attributing the comment about MP3 killing music to you personally, I was just updating the home taping comment on the Hendrix album.
John
As you point out the record companies want to retain control and make profits, music is just the commodity to them.
"HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC AND IT'S ILLEGAL"
I wasn't attributing the comment about MP3 killing music to you personally, I was just updating the home taping comment on the Hendrix album.
John
As you point out the record companies want to retain control and make profits, music is just the commodity to them.
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Bob Shedlock
Well, I suppose everyone has to do something for a living ----
I just don't believe that the "new" and "improved" formats are to serve the music, more like "massage the market". Cynical isnt it?
I just don't believe that the "new" and "improved" formats are to serve the music, more like "massage the market". Cynical isnt it?
Posted on: 22 February 2003 by Peter C
Films in the Uk have their release dates a couple of months after the US and Canada
I've seen films on holiday in Canada and the US, before their premieres in the Uk
I've seen films on holiday in Canada and the US, before their premieres in the Uk