Power Amp - Old 250 vs. New 200 vs. New 150
Posted by: Mike in PA, USA on 14 January 2004
So I may be coming into some available funds soon and feel that more power would help my Dyne 1.1s. They sound great at low volumes, but when I turn things up they loose something. My dealer will give me full value to trade my Nait5 in for a 112 plus a power amp. Options include the new 150, new 200, or a old 250 demo (which is why the recent post on the old vs. new 250 intrigued me). Here is how I see things:
112/150 - only 50 watts but would let me flatcap 2 immediately, benefiting the preamp and CD5
112/200 - more power, and 200 has internal preamp supply. Can add FC2 later (and hopefully soon).
112/old 250 - most power (but only by 10 watts), no internal preamp supply, so need to kick in the funds for a flatcap2 in addition. However, I'm worried the 250 will have my ultimately wanted to use hicaps instead of the FC2 and upgrade the preamp down the road. Basically, I'm worried it will get me too involved in the "upgrade bug".
I know I should do the demo, but may only be able to hear the old 250 and the new 150, not the new 200. A question I have is if most agree that the new 250 is such an improvement on the old 250, is the new 200 as good (or maybe slightly better) than the old 250. How much tonal variation will there be and will I hear the same tonal variation between the new 150 and the old 250?
Cheers,
Mike
112/150 - only 50 watts but would let me flatcap 2 immediately, benefiting the preamp and CD5
112/200 - more power, and 200 has internal preamp supply. Can add FC2 later (and hopefully soon).
112/old 250 - most power (but only by 10 watts), no internal preamp supply, so need to kick in the funds for a flatcap2 in addition. However, I'm worried the 250 will have my ultimately wanted to use hicaps instead of the FC2 and upgrade the preamp down the road. Basically, I'm worried it will get me too involved in the "upgrade bug".
I know I should do the demo, but may only be able to hear the old 250 and the new 150, not the new 200. A question I have is if most agree that the new 250 is such an improvement on the old 250, is the new 200 as good (or maybe slightly better) than the old 250. How much tonal variation will there be and will I hear the same tonal variation between the new 150 and the old 250?
Cheers,
Mike
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Mr_Sukebe
A few thoughts:
The new and old kit sound "different" in how they come across, not necessarily better or worse. Go listen to yourself to see which you prefer.
I tried a 200 a little while back with my Nait/hicap and really didn't think it was a big improvement, certainly not as big as replaceing the Nait pre-amp section with a 112. Between the 150 and 200, I'd go for the 150, and with the cash you save, buy yourself a s/h hicap.
The new and old kit sound "different" in how they come across, not necessarily better or worse. Go listen to yourself to see which you prefer.
I tried a 200 a little while back with my Nait/hicap and really didn't think it was a big improvement, certainly not as big as replaceing the Nait pre-amp section with a 112. Between the 150 and 200, I'd go for the 150, and with the cash you save, buy yourself a s/h hicap.
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Vaughn3D
Perhaps a hicap is the answer. You can try it on either the Nait or CD5 and see which application benefits you more. Then you can get a 2nd hicap later and power both the Nait and the CD5. I would enjoy hearing if anyone has compared a 112/150 vs. a Nait5/hicap or Nait/FC2. I have a Nait & original Planet and my next purchase will be a used hicap...someday. Is there are northeast Naim club?
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Mr_Sukebe
Vaugh,
I've recently gone from a Nait 5/hicap to a 112/hicap/nait 5.
In the first iteration, the Nait is running as a std integrated amp. In the second iteration, it's acting purely as a power amp (whilst I find a 150 or similar).
The improvement from changing the pre-amp from a Nait to a 112 was in opinion pretty startling as it was so much better. Definitely highly recommended.
I've recently gone from a Nait 5/hicap to a 112/hicap/nait 5.
In the first iteration, the Nait is running as a std integrated amp. In the second iteration, it's acting purely as a power amp (whilst I find a 150 or similar).
The improvement from changing the pre-amp from a Nait to a 112 was in opinion pretty startling as it was so much better. Definitely highly recommended.
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by ajalden
If you have a CD5 then a Flatcap could power your CD5 and NAIT5 and provide a little more grunt to your speakers.....But a 112/150 looks like a very good option if you don't intend on going too far up the ranks!.....
andy
andy
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by mathew farley
Hope this link works.......Dynaudio
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by prowla
A 250 is a GREAT power amp.
But you will get the upgrade bug.
(Is "old" chrome bumper or olive?)
But you will get the upgrade bug.
(Is "old" chrome bumper or olive?)
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Geoff P
Mike
I had a 112/150 to start and then added a HiCap which was a big boost in the sound and allowed the 150 to use it's power as effectively as possible.
Where I am going with this is to a comment about speaker sensitivity. I thought my 150 was doing a pretty good job driving my TOTEM speakers which are a difficult load to drive. There was bass and the sound was reasonably paced.
When I switched to the new 250 I discovered how much the 150 had been struggling to drive my speakers. It had been doing a valiant job but the bass had been comparitively flabby and the dynamics a bit constrained.
The key point is the bigger power supplies in the higher number amps handle the current swings and respond far better when the speaker load is high. It's not really about absolute power in Watts it's about transient current capability and that's where the 250 is so good.
So if you can do a demo, listen carefully to how the 150 deals with strong bass lines and compare that area and the dynamics to see wether it fits your set-up.
That said the 112/150 is an excellent combo with easier to drive speakers, and improves significantly when a Hicap is added.
regards
GEOFF
I had a 112/150 to start and then added a HiCap which was a big boost in the sound and allowed the 150 to use it's power as effectively as possible.
Where I am going with this is to a comment about speaker sensitivity. I thought my 150 was doing a pretty good job driving my TOTEM speakers which are a difficult load to drive. There was bass and the sound was reasonably paced.
When I switched to the new 250 I discovered how much the 150 had been struggling to drive my speakers. It had been doing a valiant job but the bass had been comparitively flabby and the dynamics a bit constrained.
The key point is the bigger power supplies in the higher number amps handle the current swings and respond far better when the speaker load is high. It's not really about absolute power in Watts it's about transient current capability and that's where the 250 is so good.
So if you can do a demo, listen carefully to how the 150 deals with strong bass lines and compare that area and the dynamics to see wether it fits your set-up.
That said the 112/150 is an excellent combo with easier to drive speakers, and improves significantly when a Hicap is added.
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Mike in PA, USA
Thanks all for the great comments...
I will definately be going with the 112 preamp, NOT keeping the NAIT as the pre. With a CD5, would the better option be 112/150/FC2 or 112/200? To put this another way, can adding the flatcap provide significantly more "oomph" such that flatcapped 50wpc = "naked" 70wpc?
Prowla: The 250 has no chrome, so I guess that makes it olive (more grey, really). It is the immediate predecessor of the current model, and is a dealer demo. Would be sold with new product warranty, etc., but I am afraid would point me down an upgrade path I do not want to follow.
Mr. Farley: Your link did work, but I am a little confused as to why you would have gone "down" from Dyne's Contour line to the Audiences.
Please keep the great ideas coming!
Cheers,
Mike
I will definately be going with the 112 preamp, NOT keeping the NAIT as the pre. With a CD5, would the better option be 112/150/FC2 or 112/200? To put this another way, can adding the flatcap provide significantly more "oomph" such that flatcapped 50wpc = "naked" 70wpc?
Prowla: The 250 has no chrome, so I guess that makes it olive (more grey, really). It is the immediate predecessor of the current model, and is a dealer demo. Would be sold with new product warranty, etc., but I am afraid would point me down an upgrade path I do not want to follow.
Mr. Farley: Your link did work, but I am a little confused as to why you would have gone "down" from Dyne's Contour line to the Audiences.
Please keep the great ideas coming!
Cheers,
Mike
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Naimed-In-NY
Mike - In my opinion the new 200 is appreciably better than the new 150 (and worth the extra money). I have never demo'ed the new 200 compared to the old 250. Given that it is a recent dealer demo with a warranty, you might want to go for that if it is priced comparably with the new 200 (assuming you prefer the old v. new sound and don't mind mixing old and new styles). I would avoid going for the 150/FC over the 200. If you get the 200, you always can add the FC (or Hi) later, if desired. If you go for the 150 and the FC, make sure you are done for a while, or you probably will regret not going for the better amp when you had the funds to do so.
An additional point is that if you have the money, you should consider the 202, which, in my opinion, is far better than the 112. I am quite satsfied with my 200/202 combo without a psu (other than the NA PSC). (Although I will add one someday!) If you can't swing that combo, you also may wish to consider a 150/202 - I think that would sound better than a 200/112 combo. In other words, I'd go as far up the chain as you can without the psu, which probably is easier to add later than switching out of a piece, and if you have to choose, I'd put more money into the preamp than the amp. Maybe it's just me, but I thought the 202 beat a 112 by a bigger margin than the 200 beat the 150. Give it a thought (and a listen).
Good luck.
MBM
An additional point is that if you have the money, you should consider the 202, which, in my opinion, is far better than the 112. I am quite satsfied with my 200/202 combo without a psu (other than the NA PSC). (Although I will add one someday!) If you can't swing that combo, you also may wish to consider a 150/202 - I think that would sound better than a 200/112 combo. In other words, I'd go as far up the chain as you can without the psu, which probably is easier to add later than switching out of a piece, and if you have to choose, I'd put more money into the preamp than the amp. Maybe it's just me, but I thought the 202 beat a 112 by a bigger margin than the 200 beat the 150. Give it a thought (and a listen).
Good luck.
MBM
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Greg Beatty
But...But...But...
Mike is trying to drive Dynes.
This changes things and was one reason I chose not to buy Dynes in the first place. I did the dem and they were good...
But...
...if you can't afford to drive them properly, they will ultimately drive you crazy. I had a pair of B&W's for over 10 years that I was under-driving and finally sold them on.
A better plan for me was to get a speaker that presents an easier load (Allaes in my case). So...with Dynes, I would skip the 150 and aim higher in the range or switch the Dynes for other speakers.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Mike is trying to drive Dynes.
This changes things and was one reason I chose not to buy Dynes in the first place. I did the dem and they were good...
But...
...if you can't afford to drive them properly, they will ultimately drive you crazy. I had a pair of B&W's for over 10 years that I was under-driving and finally sold them on.
A better plan for me was to get a speaker that presents an easier load (Allaes in my case). So...with Dynes, I would skip the 150 and aim higher in the range or switch the Dynes for other speakers.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Mike in PA, USA
MBM and Greg,
Both very good points. Greg, I really like the way the Dynes sound, just need a little more juice. I also think that while the 202 is a better preamp, the 112/200 is not mismatched, especially with CD5 as the source. I picked up a 150 to demo for a few days and dropped it home at lunch. Initial impression, albeit brief, was that it gave me a little more of what I wanted, so the 200 would give me that much more again. Probably better to have the horsepower if I ever need it. Will still listed to the 250, but I'm not really hot on mixing the two styles of gear. Probably stupid but just me.
I'll report back tomorrow after some more listening.
Cheers,
Mike
Both very good points. Greg, I really like the way the Dynes sound, just need a little more juice. I also think that while the 202 is a better preamp, the 112/200 is not mismatched, especially with CD5 as the source. I picked up a 150 to demo for a few days and dropped it home at lunch. Initial impression, albeit brief, was that it gave me a little more of what I wanted, so the 200 would give me that much more again. Probably better to have the horsepower if I ever need it. Will still listed to the 250, but I'm not really hot on mixing the two styles of gear. Probably stupid but just me.
I'll report back tomorrow after some more listening.
Cheers,
Mike
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Geoff P
The issue of driving your speakers is what I was talking about earlier that's why I agree you should go for horsepower & the 150 is a bit short on horses (different from Watts) when it's asked to drive the likes of Dynaudio
regards
GEOFF
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by rohit
Mike, can you check your PT.
Posted on: 14 January 2004 by Michael Jorgensen
I recently added a 200 to my Nait 5 / HiCap system after home demos of both a 150 and an olive 250 (approx 4 yrs old). I expected to like the 250 best, but for me the 200 really clicked with the Nait5. I'm hoping for a 202 in 2004.
Posted on: 15 January 2004 by bigmick
For the Dyns you really need a 200. The 150 will drive them but you will be getting half a bang for your buck. If you're getting full value for your Nait then the 112 is a marginal upgrade from the Nait and sensible in the context of your pre/power move. If you could stretch it though, I agree with earlier sentiments that the 202 is a really significant and more rewarding long term upgrade.
Posted on: 15 January 2004 by rocketeer
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Beatty:
But...But...But...
Mike is trying to drive Dynes.
... and trying to drive them with anything lower than a 250 strangles the sound, IMHO. I have a pair of 1.3 MkII and the power amp upgrade 140->250 was the most significant in my system. Even with an olive 250 the Dynes still leave the impression of needing more power when listening to bass heavy stuff. It's a damn pitty Naim offers the needed power of several houndres of watts only at a very expensive NAP500 level! Although i 'love' the Dynes' sound, i'm thinking of changing the speakers because i 'love' the Naim sound even more...
shortly: a contour 1.1 with a 150 or 200? don't do it!
Posted on: 15 January 2004 by Mike in PA, USA
Rohit,
"PT?"
-Mike
"PT?"
-Mike
Posted on: 15 January 2004 by Bosh
PT = Private topics
Click on "MySPace"
Click on "MySPace"
Posted on: 15 January 2004 by Naimed-In-NY
Alain - Hi. The 200/202 combo is a great one. The addition of the NA PSC2 was well worth the money. I see you have the 202 hi-capped. I hope too as well one day. I've demoed the 202 with and without the hi-cap and the difference was immediately noticeable and, in my opinion, worth the money. Unfortunately, I don't have the money for the hi-cap just yet, and my next purchase will be a Naim cdp. I hope to add a hi-cap to my 202 as the step after that.
MBM
MBM
Posted on: 15 January 2004 by Mike in PA, USA
Reporting back: The 150 seemed to add a little "more" than the Nait had, and this is with the Nait running as preamp. I'm thinking that 112/200 will be the way to go. If that still can't push the speakers, maybe time to go speaker shopping.
-Mike
-Mike