Crimson/Naim?
Posted by: Top Cat on 20 February 2001
Due to an unexpected sale, I'm able to look at getting a new power amp or power amps, and potentially may at this point push the boat out and get a new preamp as well. Amongst the usual suspects (including Naim), I've come across a brand called Crimson. Their power amps seem to be highly regarded, from what I've seen, so I'm wondering a couple of things:
(1) Has anyone any experience with the 640 200w monoblocks?
(2) How well would they mate to a Naim preamp, e.g. a 72? Would it be a decent match or one made in hell.
I like the Crimson idea as it's cheaper and also more compact than (say) a Naim 250, whilst retaining a decent amount of power and (apparently) PRaT. I'm borrowing a pair of monoblocks this weekend for home dem, and wondered whether it's worth borrowing a Naim preamp to try with it...
Any assistance would be great,
Ta,
John
To be more accurate: I turned down the Crimsons after 1 or 2 minutes, continuing the comparison between Naim and other stuff. Naim was best, and I haven't changed my mind since then.
And if you look at the commercial past of Crimson, I'd not be very confident ... The company has been close to bankruptcy more than once, and if you look for a system that offers good service and spare parts for a long time, 'know wha' I mean ... 
Bernard
Aside from all of that, I have been informed that a 180 won't be really up to driving Neat Petite's with the Gravitas subs effectively - something I hasten to add I haven't tried - and so it's either stretch to a 250, which the same 'informant' claims may also be a little underpowered - or find something in the same vein, i.e. detail, timing, dynamics all rolled into a lovely musical mix.
The longevity of the company doesn't concern me that much - if that were my principal motivation, I'd buy a Philips or Sony amp 
Anyway, you're getting me off the point a bit - I'm glad you gave comments - if everyone came back and said the Crimsons weren't up to much then I might not bother with the demo, but I suspect it's going to ultimately be one of those 'personal taste' things, rather than a failing of Crimson and/or Naim and/or whoever...
John
But still - the actual difference would have been around 30% at most (with brand new gear). And it depends also on the prices in each country.
And I'm sorry, but the Crimsons were not much better than my former Sansui amp! It might well be that the Crimsons just didn't get along with my speakers, though. Anyway, in my particular case, spending the money on booze would have been more sensible than buying a Crimson.
Bernard
Just a quick note - I did a demo yesterday of a Naim 102/HiCap/250 and also heard a 150 as well, versus a couple of other amp systems, CD5/HiCap as CD source, plus the Crimson 200w monoblocks, and was impressed mostly by the Naim and Crimson gear. In the end, however, I felt the Crimson was the more musical of the two, and given that it was cheaper I decided that I'd give it the home demo.
Not what I expected, really - I thought the Naim would be bigger on the PRaT, but the Crimson had it beat there. I suspect it's vastly bigger power 'headroom' gave the dynamics more 'room' in which to breathe, and the control on the bass was extraordinary. Both systems were significantly in front of my current amps (Arcam) but then given the price differential, I am not surprised.
Where Naim scored points over the Crimson was in the upgradability - after all, there are so many permutations of PSU and so forth that can be added, and I do like to tinker 
It is a really tough call, because on one hand I respect much of what you guys here on the forum have to say - but on the other hand I know which sounded better to my ears, and it wasn't Naim.
I really expected to come out the shop with a Naim Pre-Power, I really did (despite my resistance in the past). However, the effortlessly controlled and rhythmical sound of the Crimson system left the Naim entrant for dead in every department, apart from perhaps gain - the Crimson is at rock concert PA levels at 12 O'clock - the guys in the shop can testify to that - and I therefore felt that perhaps there was too much power - the Naim preamp seemed to have a much more usable volume control in that regard.
Controversial? Probably. When I got the amps back to my house, I couldn't believe how much the Neat Petite/Gravitas suddenly came to life - it was an epiphany of audio pleasure!
I've not yet committed to either system - I have time left, and don't feel pressured to buy into either system, but I'm pleased I went to hear both systems beside each other (and I instructed the shop to give both a while to warm up beforehand, to give each the best possible operating environment). I'm mostly pleased because I now know that Naim is not the be all and end all of PRaT - and I can choose a system which can do it all - the horizon of flat and round-earths, a place I've been looking for for some time now.
I have to say at this point that the Naim system was very very good, though, don't get me wrong - it's just that it was soundly beaten in this case to my ears. A good example of being open to other brands - I will probably still buy a CD5 - (the source for my tests, along with some other high-end player that didn't sound any better but carried a higher pricetag).
So, I know which sounds better, but I could happily live with either system - it's now a simple matter of deciding on whether I want to take the chance on lower resale values or perhaps begin my path midway up the Naim ladder...
Ah, dilemma... at least I now know just how good the Neat Petite's with Gravitas can be - I'm glad I didn't judge them solely on the basis of their performance with the Arcam amps (which no doubt couldn't cut their difficult load so easily)..
John
PS. to anyone who has knocked Crimson due to anything they've read or heard in the past - don't - the 640 monoblocks are something else, and can kick out over a kilowatt into 1ohm, should you have really really difficult speakers...
quote:
If I were you I would only buy Crimson if it was a LOT better than Naim.Naim stuff is very, very reliable, holds its value, is dead easy to sell if you want to upgrade and should you have any kind of problem Naim service and customer care is first class. There is a lot of Naim out there so you should be able to pick up a good amp second hand quite easily which changes the cost comparisons somewhat.
I agree with you there - however, the whole point of pushing the boat out at this point is to buy the 'last amplifier' I'll ever need - to my ears, and bearing in mind that I could never settle for PRaT alone, the Crimson was a tangible amount better than the Naim (although it was a bit like choosing a malt whisky - at this level it is all about personal taste and the relative balance of characteristics) - not having heard the 135 monoblocks or a 52 fronted system, I imagine a 52/2x135 would be a better match. Now, I know that there is another stage up the Naim ladder than that, but I wouldn't want to have to spend £10k on an amplifier
I did for a while wonder about the synergy of the demo components during the audition - after all, they were unfamiliar speakers which couldn't be avoided, and perhaps they preferred the Crimson amps, who knows.
All I can say is that the sound I'm getting through the LP12/Crimson/Neat Petite-Gravitas combination is amazing - if a bit surprising (remember, deep down I thought I was going to fall for the Naim combo, even though I liked the idea of the Crimson, and everone was slating it on this thread, so I began to question whether it was worth auditioning).
On another note, they come with an unconditional 3 year guarantee and the parts are shared with the DNM brand so at least any reliability problems should be no problem to fix. Also, resale doesn't concern me much as I am regarding the current amp purchase (whatever it turns out to be) as my final amp - after all, I've spent far too much on hifi over the years and it will be nice to stop and enjoy the music!
John
PS. I see now why people rave about Neat speakers - the Petite/Gravitas combo is devastatingly good when used with a good amp!
quote:
As for Naim, you are in a very good position to buy second hand, 1700 quid would get you something really nice such as a 102 / Hicap / old 250, or a more front end first balanced 82 / 140 (probably the better choice if current is not your main concern). If you could stretch to a 82 / 180 (or get an old 160 serviced) you would really be cooking.
Interesting. It was a 102/HiCap/new 250 which I demo'd the Crimson against. I'm not entirely sure that it was the 102, though, but I know that it was what the dealer reckoned the 'ideal match' for the 250. It was a great sounding system, but (and here's the rub) the Crimson pre-power out PRaT'd the Naim combo. I admit, they were all sitting on Quadraspire so that would have robbed the edge off the timing, but even still the Crimson was ahead.
A 140 won't drive the Petite/Gravitas well enough to really get the explosive dynamics and bass control that the speakers are capable of. A 250 would really be the minimum to do it right. In my so-far limited experience with the P/Gs, meaningful and controlled bass is the first thing to go if the amp isn't up to the job. This is one thing that swayed me from the Pre/Hi/180 combo which would be just a little more expensive than the Crimson setup. I'd not be willing to settle for anything less than a 250 in terms of 'power' and 'current' delivery - for the same reason I didn't bother auditioning the Crimson 100w monobocks - the 200's swing enormous current and can drive flat out for hours into 1 ohm loads(so I have been told - like, I'm going to be doing that in my wee house )
I'm just a bit perplexed about this whole thing - I mean, despite what the shop had said (they were more pro-Crimson than pro-Naim, selling both and singing the praises of both) I expected the Naim system to sound better. That's what gets me - do I trust my own ears and go with them or am I wrong and everyone else on this forum is write...
Man, I'm beginning to sound like Arye Gur 
Johnye Gur
quote:
Be as careful as possible that the gear is correctly set up - with Naim this means using the best source in the shop (don't for instance use a CD3 to audition a 82 or 250), use Naim interconnects, A5 speaker cable, and Naim mains leads.
The system ???/HiCap/250 used NACA5 single wired into the speakers (with a jumper in place), the Crimson was DNM Reson (which I use at home). I don't know about the power cables - the Crimson used DNM solid core mains cables (apparently they are included in the price), the source was CD5/HiCap (only a CDX was available as an alternative, and I've done that demo before )
I asked beforehand if they could let both systems power up for a while before the demo, as I'd read that it makes a difference. Interconnects, I don't know about.
quote:
Could you borrow Mr Pig's 72/Hicap/250 to try that at home? With your LP12 and Neats it should sound excellent, and certainly give you a sufficient hint as to whether Naim is the way for you to go. If you do decide to go Naim, at least the rest is quite simple, the dearer products are better than the cheaper ones, the only question is where the law of diminishing returns kicks in for you personally.
Good advice - I doubt Mr Pig would loan me his system, as it's probably in too much demand at home. In any case, I think his setup is an 82/HiCap/250 (Mr Pig, am I right about this?) which puts it out of my price range, even secondhand (~£2500ish).
For £1700, I reckon I can get a 72/HiCap/250 (maybe) secondhand, which I've been told is the minimum I should consider to be worthwhile in my case - things is, I was so blown away by the Crimsons that I am seriously swaying toward them - I was quite breathtaken by them!
I'll make my decision over the weekend, methinks...
John