USB to S/PDIF interface "The Bridge". The Holy Grail?

quote:

Originally posted by James L:
I think this little gem will be ordered the same time I order my nDAC...

Looks more expensive than the HiFace and only supports up to 96khz.

Joe

Yes, the Hi-face has been the default unit to date.

For me, I don't (yet) have any files higher then 96k and the Hi-face requires an additional coax cable.

Further, interesting review of The Bridge by Chris over at Computer Audiophile.

The big advantage of the Bridge is that it uses default OS supplied drivers which are universally supported rather than relying on (for example) M2Tech creating drivers for each operating system.

Eloise

I'd take whatever Chris with a large grain of sal

Chris has no technical expertise and never disclosed what his credentials or his listning prefernces

His so called reviews are shallow and are not much more than transliteration of the vendors' press releases

He is a nice guy but my impression is he is just a mouthpiece of the vendors who love him and provide him with all the right toys

my 3 cents only

The Halide Bridge looks very good on paper due to its implementation of Wavelength Audios asyncronous USB to S/PDIF converter. This could be a close to perfect connection for a Mac or PC to the Naim DAC...

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
The big advantage of the Bridge is that it uses default OS supplied drivers which are universally supported rather than relying on (for example) M2Tech creating drivers for each operating system.

Eloise

So no ASIO? How does it work bit perfectly?

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
The big advantage of the Bridge is that it uses default OS supplied drivers which are universally supported rather than relying on (for example) M2Tech creating drivers for each operating system.

So no ASIO? How does it work bit perfectly?

WASAPI for Windows Vista/7; ASIO4All with Windows XP (okay so I guess that could be considered "another" driver) and Core Audio with Mac OS X.

Eloise,

Thanks!

Hmmm I wonder why ASIO4ALL instead of ASIO 2.0?

I thought ASIO4ALL was widely considered to be inferior to KS, WASAPI, and true ASIO?

-Patrick

I hear there is a new product 'EVO' from M2Tech, a totaly uncompromised version of their 'hiface' ,I don't know any details has anyone heard or seen anything?

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
I hear there is a new product 'EVO' from M2Tech, a totaly uncompromised version of their 'hiface' ,I don't know any details has anyone heard or seen anything?

quote:

The 'EVO' is based on the hiface, but doesn't have the size constraint, it too will have everything, different options for power supply, different regulation far more connectivity options, aluminium case ,and reasonably priced.

Nothing published as I understand (from PFM).

-
aleg

Everything is a compromise and still computer as source which is fine for those that want that but not for everyone. Does sound interesting and it's nice to have new products from someone with a good track record even if it's a short one.

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
I'd take whatever Chris with a large grain of sal

Chris has no technical expertise and never disclosed what his credentials or his listning prefernces

His so called reviews are shallow and are not much more than transliteration of the vendors' press releases

He is a nice guy but my impression is he is just a mouthpiece of the vendors who love him and provide him with all the right toys

my 3 cents only

He also still prefers his lynx card and something like the 202 is even better so this is still a couple rungs down even if he's accurate.

I think sometimes it is an advantage not to use the audio subsystems of an operating systems, because you have to live with its limitations. I really like HiFace and its approach, to use their own driver and not deal with the audio subsystems.

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
I think sometimes it is an advantage not to use the audio subsystems of an operating systems, because you have to live with its limitations. I really like HiFace and its approach, to use their own driver and not deal with the audio subsystems.

Isnt the hiface using kernel streaming? Very much a part of the OS.

quote:

I think sometimes it is an advantage not to use the audio subsystems of an operating systems, because you have to live with its limitations. I really like HiFace and its approach, to use their own driver and not deal with the audio subsystems.

I am not familiar with PC Audio and all the tweaking that goes along with it. But I am quite sure that HiFace use their own driver and bypass KMixer in WIndoze or Core Audio in Mac. That was one reason I stuck with the Weiss or HiFace approach.

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:

quote:

I think sometimes it is an advantage not to use the audio subsystems of an operating systems, because you have to live with its limitations. I really like HiFace and its approach, to use their own driver and not deal with the audio subsystems.

I am not familiar with PC Audio and all the tweaking that goes along with it. But I am quite sure that HiFace use their own driver and bypass KMixer in WIndoze or Core Audio in Mac. That was one reason I stuck with the Weiss or HiFace approach.

And this is the reason why HiFace can do 192k through the USB, unlike those async USB converters which are using the audio subsystem's and os's USB audio implementation, limited by 96k.

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:
I'd take whatever Chris with a large grain of sal

Chris has no technical expertise and never disclosed what his credentials or his listning prefernces

His so called reviews are shallow and are not much more than transliteration of the vendors' press releases

He is a nice guy but my impression is he is just a mouthpiece of the vendors who love him and provide him with all the right toys

my 3 cents only

Hi JWOW -

While you are entitled to your opinion, I respectfully disagree.

From what I've seen over the last three and a half years, Chris was guilty of what you say exactly one time (with his review of the Peachtree Nova). After getting ripped for it, he apologized and produced a second, more critical review.

I think the guy deserves a lot of credit for the amount of time and effort he has put into building the web site. He was leading the charge for computers as high-quality sources long before it became popular.

Cozy with manufacturers? Sure, but how else do you attract test equipment as well as expert commentary? Where else can I read a discussion between Gordon Rankin and Steve Nugent (with comments by Eloise) about the challenges of using wireless USB hubs to connect computers and DACs, etc.?

And oh yeah, I also take everything Chris says (not to mention everybody else on every forum on the internet) with a grain of salt.

Hook

PS - And no, I am not defending him because he happens to be a home boy...

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:

quote:

I think sometimes it is an advantage not to use the audio subsystems of an operating systems, because you have to live with its limitations. I really like HiFace and its approach, to use their own driver and not deal with the audio subsystems.

I am not familiar with PC Audio and all the tweaking that goes along with it. But I am quite sure that HiFace use their own driver and bypass KMixer in WIndoze or Core Audio in Mac. That was one reason I stuck with the Weiss or HiFace approach.

And this is the reason why HiFace can do 192k through the USB, unlike those async USB converters which are using the audio subsystem's and os's USB audio implementation, limited by 96k.

It seams to me there is some confusion and some misinformation about the issues of using USB converters with Windows (and Mac for that matter).

First off, Core Audio in Mac OS is perfectly capable of all sample rates up to (at least) 24/192 given suitable hardware and drivers. All music playback software (that I am aware of) uses Core Audio which is bit perfect so long as the settings in the Audio MIDI control application is set correctly. The big issue with Mac OS X is that Apple believe that software should not be in control of the setting of the sample rate so iTunes will not automatically change the settings in Audio MIDI (software such as Play, Pure Music and Amarra will do). If you leave Audio MIDI settings at (for example) 24/96, all audio played back will be re-sampled to this rate. If you do this within iTunes the result is not end of the world, however is probably marginally worse than (for example) letting a Naim DAC receive the audio at native sample rate. Using digital output of the Mac, volume control is usually (automatically) bypassed.

My understanding of Windows handling of audio is less than Mac OS X so please forgive any errors; however the situation is (as I understand it) very similar with Windows Vista and Windows 7. There is a control panel where the target sample rate is set and all audio passed to Windows at different sample rate is re-sampled. With Windows XP this re-sampling was not very high quality and the KMixer subsystem often seamed to mess with audio regardless (IIRC). Kernel Streaming was Microsoft's method of bypassing the KMixer subsystem or alternatively you could use ASIO. ASIO was devised by Steinberg to allow lower latency audio and (as a byproduct) also ensured that Windows didn't mess with the audio. (Note: as I understand it, earlier versions of Mac OS X supported a form of ASIO but this was dropped when Core Audio was introduced in OS X 10.3 Panther). KMixer was superseded in Windows Vista which introduce WASAPI which also allowed direct access to hardware bypassing the Windows Audio subsystems.

All this is secondary to the capabilities of USB devices and the drivers provided. The USB Organisation have defined a "standard" USB interface for audio, in the same way they produce a specification for keyboards and mice, etc. This is known as Class 1.0 (nothing to do with USB1 vs USB 2.0). The Class 1.0 supports up to (approximately) 24/96 over 2-channels (bi-directionally) with either asynchronous or adaptive methodology of data transfer. Any company can build hardware to work with this specification and then expect it to work with all Operating Systems that support Class 1.0 USB Audio - i.e. Windows from XP onwards, Mac OS X, most versions of Linux and probably others I'm not aware of. You can build a Class 1.0 USB interface using a self contained chip such as PCM2702, or a more generic chip such as TAS1020B on which you need to run self-developed (or third-party licenced) code such as the CEntrance code used by (IIRC) Bel Canto (and others) or Wavelength's Streamlength code. A later development from the USB Organisation is Class 2.0 audio devices which will allow for 24/192. As far as I am aware not Class 2.0 devices currently exist though Wavelength is working on a new version of Streamlength to take advantage of Class 2.0 USB Audio. Also if I understand correctly, only Mac OS X 10.6 supports Class 2.0 USB Audio. Being written by the OS manufacturer you can expect that the Class 1.0 USB Audio driver should support all OS functionality such as Kernel Streaming and WASAPI.

The alternative route is to do as M2Tech have with the HiFace in ignoring all the set down specifications for USB Audio and build your own hardware / software combination. While this has advantages in that you can do what you want, you also have to write your own drivers for Windows, Mac OS X and any other OS you wish to support (M2Tech have promised Linux support but so far it's failed to materialise). Also some drivers (e.g. M2Tech's for the HiFace) may only support limited OS functionality - i.e. the early M2Tech drivers only supported Kernel Streaming and even the current ones have some problems with WASAPI the last I heard.

Just to confuse, some USB devices may support Class 1.0 for basic functionality, while allowing additional functionality (i.e. 24/192) when used with bespoke drivers...

So which is best ... well that's for you (the end user) to decide. Hope my explanations have helped explain a bit so you can make that decision easier.

Eloise

P.S. I'm writing this as an end user NOT as a manufacturer, etc so feel free to correct me if you feel I have made any errors.

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:

quote:

Originally posted by JYOW:

quote:

I think sometimes it is an advantage not to use the audio subsystems of an operating systems, because you have to live with its limitations. I really like HiFace and its approach, to use their own driver and not deal with the audio subsystems.

I am not familiar with PC Audio and all the tweaking that goes along with it. But I am quite sure that HiFace use their own driver and bypass KMixer in WIndoze or Core Audio in Mac. That was one reason I stuck with the Weiss or HiFace approach.

And this is the reason why HiFace can do 192k through the USB, unlike those async USB converters which are using the audio subsystem's and os's USB audio implementation, limited by 96k.

.......The alternative route is to do as M2Tech have with the HiFace in ignoring all the set down specifications for USB Audio and build your own hardware / software combination. While this has advantages in that you can do what you want, you also have to write your own drivers for Windows, Mac OS X and any other OS you wish to support (M2Tech have promised Linux support but so far it's failed to materialise). Also some drivers (e.g. M2Tech's for the HiFace) may only support limited OS functionality - i.e. the early M2Tech drivers only supported Kernel Streaming and even the current ones have some problems with WASAPI the last I heard.

Wasapi runs well with Foobar on Windows 7 64 bit on my Macbook - sounds quite good by the way.

I also find Wasapi a very good sounding solution, I have tried it in exclusive mode with different audio devices (RME and Lynx cards) and they sound as well as with their native Asio drivers. These tests were carried out under JRiver 14. IMO Windows 7 wasapi mode is more transparent than asio drivers for Windows XP. Maybe it is still possible a more efficient way of communication between OS and audio device but in the context of PCI audio devices Wasapi is a big step ahead.

WASAPI with Windows 7 and the ESI Juli@ is a combination not without its issues.

Once set up any changes to the output brings white noise to the output and a Foobar crash. Not sure what is up with that.

ASIO works fine.