Eight years down the line...
Posted by: tonym on 25 June 2003
After eight years, I've suddenly decided to look at upgrade options for my Naim system, which comprises LP12/Arkiv/Ekos/Lingo etc, Active SBL speakers, crossover & power supply, 52 preamp & a pair of NAP 250 amps. During this time I've barely glanced at a Hi-Fi magazine. I've added a Tag-Mclaren home cinema system is all, and very good it is too. After checking the Naim website, & signing onto this forum, I confess to being completely lost aboout what to do first. I notice the speakers are no longer made, but anyway were upgraded a few years ago. Worth upgrading or buying a pair of NBLs, which seem to be their replacements? Is my present system suitable for these?
OK, I should really go to a dealer for advice at some stage, but I value user's opinions. Any help would be most welcome!
OK, I should really go to a dealer for advice at some stage, but I value user's opinions. Any help would be most welcome!
Posted on: 25 June 2003 by Bosh
Firstly is your Arkiv up to spec, have you a prefix (if so is it hicapped/supercapped), are your burndys and SNAICS black, is your crossover a (S)NAXO, is it Supercapped and is any of it over 10 years old an hence in need of a re-cap??
The general consensus for big box upgrades from where you are seems to be to look at the pre-amp. The word is that whilst the 252 is better than the 52 it may not be worth upgrading to this but bypassing it to the 552.
There is also a majority preference for NAP500 over active 250/135.
Speakers are more of a personal preference, the NBLs will require a 3rd NAP250 and a (S)NAXO upgrade. Doing a search on Jun Kellers posts will show he feels passive (135) NBLs are better than active SBLs(although active NBLS are better still)
You need to find a dealer and do some serious demos (and makes friends with the bank manager
The general consensus for big box upgrades from where you are seems to be to look at the pre-amp. The word is that whilst the 252 is better than the 52 it may not be worth upgrading to this but bypassing it to the 552.
There is also a majority preference for NAP500 over active 250/135.
Speakers are more of a personal preference, the NBLs will require a 3rd NAP250 and a (S)NAXO upgrade. Doing a search on Jun Kellers posts will show he feels passive (135) NBLs are better than active SBLs(although active NBLS are better still)
You need to find a dealer and do some serious demos (and makes friends with the bank manager
Posted on: 25 June 2003 by greeny
Assuming you are still happy with Vinyl only you have to try quite hard (i.e. spend a lot) to significantly improve your setup. I would start by making sure your turntable is AOK, set up properly and your cartridge is OK.
After that then adding a prefix phono stage (and power supply) might be the most cost effective upgrade. If you start looking at upgrading your amps and speakers you are talking big money for a worthwhile improvement.
After that then adding a prefix phono stage (and power supply) might be the most cost effective upgrade. If you start looking at upgrading your amps and speakers you are talking big money for a worthwhile improvement.
Posted on: 25 June 2003 by JRHardee
What are you using for a rack? Do you have a dedicated line? If you don't have these sorted out, you aren't getting the most out of what you already have, and you won't get the most out of any future upgrades.
Posted on: 25 June 2003 by Paul Gravett
Tonym, your system is almost identical to the one I've built up in the last couple of years. I think it is one of theclassic Linn/Naim active combos and won't be substantially improved on without spending a lot more money.
A separate phono stage is mandatory in a setup of this calibre and I use a Prefix, powered by a Hicap. Together they would cost about £1350 new. Hicaps regularly turn up second hand but Prefixes are much rarer. As an alternative you could listen to the Linn Linto phono stage or the Tom Evans 'The Groove' (the latter has been much discussed on the Forum, so try doing a search).
If the LP12 hasn't been serviced in the last couple of years take it to your dealer and also ask him to look at the cartridge. Linn have a new high-end cartridge called the Arkiva which I have had the privilege of hearing and it is stunning, one of the best upgrades you could possibly make. It doesn't come cheap at £1800 but you will get £500 back for the Arkiv.
In my opinion these upgrades will give you far more pleasure than swopping your SBLs for NBLs. They will also cost less than one-third of the price, even if you buy all the equipment new!
Naim SBLs are an all-time classic speaker. I've never heard NBLS, am sure they'll go deeper and have greater scale, but SBLs are so good - especially when active - that they'll really shine when you improve the front-end of your system.
A lot of your setups potential will be wasted unless it sits on a really good rack. One of the main developments in hifi over the last few years has been 'rack wars'. Like you I was completely out of touch for a long time until I returned to the fold 2-3 years ago and I remember wondering what all the fuss was about and who 'Mana', 'Quadraspire' and 'Hutter' were.
These three are the main high-quality rack manuafacturers, along with Naim who now make their own supports called The Fraim. You should give each of them a listen to decide what's best for you.
I use Mana myself but opinions are sharply divided. Most people, though, will agree that a Mana Reference Table or Soundshelf does wonders for an LP12. I also use Mana Soundbases under my SBLs and they make a big difference too.
Hope this is of some help to you.
A separate phono stage is mandatory in a setup of this calibre and I use a Prefix, powered by a Hicap. Together they would cost about £1350 new. Hicaps regularly turn up second hand but Prefixes are much rarer. As an alternative you could listen to the Linn Linto phono stage or the Tom Evans 'The Groove' (the latter has been much discussed on the Forum, so try doing a search).
If the LP12 hasn't been serviced in the last couple of years take it to your dealer and also ask him to look at the cartridge. Linn have a new high-end cartridge called the Arkiva which I have had the privilege of hearing and it is stunning, one of the best upgrades you could possibly make. It doesn't come cheap at £1800 but you will get £500 back for the Arkiv.
In my opinion these upgrades will give you far more pleasure than swopping your SBLs for NBLs. They will also cost less than one-third of the price, even if you buy all the equipment new!
Naim SBLs are an all-time classic speaker. I've never heard NBLS, am sure they'll go deeper and have greater scale, but SBLs are so good - especially when active - that they'll really shine when you improve the front-end of your system.
A lot of your setups potential will be wasted unless it sits on a really good rack. One of the main developments in hifi over the last few years has been 'rack wars'. Like you I was completely out of touch for a long time until I returned to the fold 2-3 years ago and I remember wondering what all the fuss was about and who 'Mana', 'Quadraspire' and 'Hutter' were.
These three are the main high-quality rack manuafacturers, along with Naim who now make their own supports called The Fraim. You should give each of them a listen to decide what's best for you.
I use Mana myself but opinions are sharply divided. Most people, though, will agree that a Mana Reference Table or Soundshelf does wonders for an LP12. I also use Mana Soundbases under my SBLs and they make a big difference too.
Hope this is of some help to you.
Posted on: 25 June 2003 by Charles
Have you considered a recap of your NAP250's and 52 power supply?
Charles
Charles
Posted on: 25 June 2003 by prowla
look on the music threads - there's 17000 albums going!
Posted on: 26 June 2003 by tonym
Well, thanks a lot folks, all very helpful.
The main message seems to be - my old system is pretty darn good still, & I'll have to fork out a lot of the folding stuff to achieve a significant improvement.
I'll certainly get the LP12 serviced, & look towards getting the equipment stands improved. The LP12 currently sits on a Mana table of some description, so I think I'll start off with the soundbases under the SBLs. Guess it would be worth getting these upgraded to the new drivers as well.
The main message seems to be - my old system is pretty darn good still, & I'll have to fork out a lot of the folding stuff to achieve a significant improvement.
I'll certainly get the LP12 serviced, & look towards getting the equipment stands improved. The LP12 currently sits on a Mana table of some description, so I think I'll start off with the soundbases under the SBLs. Guess it would be worth getting these upgraded to the new drivers as well.
Posted on: 26 June 2003 by kan man
Tony
When was the last time you powered the system down and cleaned all the cable connections, speaker leads and mains plugs? If you're not a tweaker you probably never do this? If this is the case you may get the upgrade you desire for free. Unplug/replug everythig several times and use some Duraglit on the mains plugs. May sound batty to you but it works. Just don't forget that the system will need to warm up again for a few days afterwards.
Regards
Steve
When was the last time you powered the system down and cleaned all the cable connections, speaker leads and mains plugs? If you're not a tweaker you probably never do this? If this is the case you may get the upgrade you desire for free. Unplug/replug everythig several times and use some Duraglit on the mains plugs. May sound batty to you but it works. Just don't forget that the system will need to warm up again for a few days afterwards.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 26 June 2003 by Paul Gravett
OOOOPS I ALMOST FORGOT...
Tony, glad you've found the advice helpful.
One thing I forgot to mention was about your tonearm. Is is an Ekos I or II? The latter is meant to sound far superior and the good news is that Linn offer an upgrade from a Mk1 for 'only' £500. The bearings on the Mk1 are notoriously prone to wear anyway, so it may be worth your while getting it checked.
Naim will replace the SBL bass/mid driver and tweeter for about £400. Definitely a worthwhile upgrade, but even in their original form the SBLs are mighty good speakers so I would still prioritise changes to the front-end of your system.
Linn have also recently brought out an improved Mk2 Lingo. It's costly at £850 but if you're handy with a soldering-iron you may be able to modify your Lingo Mk1 a la Andy Weekes (see the thread Linn Lingo - the Evil Within). I've compared the two and there isn't much between them.
Tony, glad you've found the advice helpful.
One thing I forgot to mention was about your tonearm. Is is an Ekos I or II? The latter is meant to sound far superior and the good news is that Linn offer an upgrade from a Mk1 for 'only' £500. The bearings on the Mk1 are notoriously prone to wear anyway, so it may be worth your while getting it checked.
Naim will replace the SBL bass/mid driver and tweeter for about £400. Definitely a worthwhile upgrade, but even in their original form the SBLs are mighty good speakers so I would still prioritise changes to the front-end of your system.
Linn have also recently brought out an improved Mk2 Lingo. It's costly at £850 but if you're handy with a soldering-iron you may be able to modify your Lingo Mk1 a la Andy Weekes (see the thread Linn Lingo - the Evil Within). I've compared the two and there isn't much between them.