Red Wine

Tonight i am drinking a Yering Station - Shiraz 2002. Not my usual choice, but is quite pleasant.

Happy Chick

Firstly:
I agree very strongly with Rod's comments about wine & supermarkets further up the thread -- very good to see that situation given a airing. Frankly it seems to me that the majority of consumers (of most products -- wine isn't alone here) are short-sightedly fixated on price points, rather than value for money. Certainly, given the fiscal situation in the UK, an additional 50p on a GBP4.75 wine budget will often yield returns out of all proportion to the amount of money involved.

Secondly:
Does it not come into the category of the bleedin' obvious that if one is paying a given amount at retail for a bottle of wine, the further it has been shipped, the more of that price has gone into transport, and the less into content? Thus in the UK at least, and excepting clerical errors, best value for money will always be wines of European origin. "Buy local" is always a good starting point when sourcing anything, surely. I personally take the attitude that anything much over about GBP7-8 a bottle needs very careful thought, and most what's under our stairs cost between GBP2-4 per bottle, bought mostly direct from the producers. The snag with this is that obviously one has to drive a bit.

Thirdly:
There are some oddly-twisted economics in existence, spawned possibly by local taxation and other factors. We visited Australia a couple of years ago, and were astonished at (a) how flaming expensive any wine was, to the extent that well-known, global factory-brands such as Jacob's Crack were up to twice the cost (in urban bottle-shops) of the same wine in a UK supermarket. While appreciating that duties down-under are levied on a percentage basis, rather than a flat rate, it appears that the massively corporate-laboratory-dominated Australian wine industry has taken a leaf out of the book written by the Japanese car industry in the 70s -- sort out your home market, dominate it with volume and by taxing imports heavily, and only then chase the exports. I also understand (I have a client who is in the industry) that it is the stated aim of said Australian wine industry to make Australian wine the "leisure drink of choice" the world over. This implies current and intended production capacity which to my mind virtually removes the product from any reasonable definition of wine, and puts it very much in the alcopop category. I am of course aware that there are also a large number of small independant producers who really do the job, but even some of their stuff seemed to have that same generic "Ye Olde Oak Ham" flavour which is off-puttingly chemical.

Fourthly:
We've evolved some ground rules for ending up with something reasonable. Our priorities involve eating food with it -- aperitifs are a different animal entirely, and I don't think one should confuse the two.
Not foolproof by any means, but they've worked well for us so far:

• Learn enough of the local language that you can roughly translate the key parts of the label. Avoid like the plague anything which uses English, but is produced in a non-English speaking country as this stinks of "marketing". As with so much else, the more effort you put in, the greater (vastly) the benefit.
  
• Look for stuff that originated from one property, preferably bottled there too.
  
• Look for a year prominently displayed on the label. Often doesn't matter what it is -- it's much more important that the producer wants you to know the vintage.
  
• Be cautious about any more than 2 colours on the label, although any <<medailles>> or whatever in gold won't do any harm.
  
• If there's a picture of a house of some sort on the label, ask yourself if you'd be prepared to live there. If yes, so much the better.
  
• [contentious!] Avoid anthing which doesn't use a proper cork, as far as you can tell. A producer using alternatives is happy to put cork-farmers out of business, so I don't want to buy his wine.
  

Using the above, some common sense and some easily-acquired instinct, we've bought Chianti for just over 2 quid a bottle in a Florence corner shop, some wonderful sangiovese-based stuff in a similar establishment in Rome, numerous previously-unknowns in both Spain and France, and recently a stack of utterly fabulous Egri Bikavaer (spelling?)at 600 forints -- just under 2 quid -- in Budapest. All these countries have been producing wine for centuries -- it's entirely part of their culture and they know about how to make it work properly with food.

Phew. That's better.

Best;

Mark

Rod,
how come you were at the wine fair in Angers? Let me know next time you come, I am only 35 minutes from Angers,
Cheers
Uwe
usupperatwanadoodotfr

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Ellis-Jones:

If there's a picture of a house of some sort on the label, ask yourself if you'd be prepared to live there. If yes, so much the better.

Couldn't agree more with your post Mark, although I fear that the elixir that is Mateus Rosé is the exception that proves your rule above.

The ghastly truth is that the the bloke that owns the exquisite house on the label of Mateus (needless to say it has nothing to do with the producers of the wine) was offered the choice of a one-off payment for using his home's image, or a 'per-usage' basis. Guess which he chose?

Mateus Rosé has sold around eighty million cases since...

Ouch.

I firmly believe no-one has ever regretted spending more on wine. Ever. Dare I say, even more than with hi-fi, with wine the more you spend the greater the experience you will have.

Pewrsonally right now I am drinking a Barossa Grenache that a friend of mine made and as it cost me £0.00 it tastes even better...

Hic

Rod

Oh bollocks -- you're right of course. I hadn't heard that Mateus snippet, but obstinately hold that our rule stands up on the basis that I personally wouldn't want to live in the Mateus castelo, as it's a bit over-manicured and I can't imagine any old tractors lying around under tarpaulins there!

We had our last (I think) bottle of Chateau Des Mailles 2001 last night with an organic roast chicken. Positively thrumming with harmony & other good stuff.

Diversion:
I know nothing about the relationship between French supermarkets and their respective wine suppliers, but have been impressed that there is usually a strong local bias -- implying that even a LeClerc buyer will have the freedom to buy relatively small quantities from a variety of relatively small, local producers. Obviously geography comes into this to a large extent, but it does seem that overall this is to the benefit of their wine industry rather then its eventual detriment. Do you know different, and if so what's your view?

Best;

Mark

Anyone got a recommendations on Chiantis? Have enjoyed several trips to Italy, only to be disappointed when we get back that none of the good stuff (and this doesn't mean expensive) gets over here.
David

quote:

[contentious!] Avoid anthing which doesn't use a proper cork, as far as you can tell. A producer using alternatives is happy to put cork-farmers out of business, so I don't want to buy his wine.

err don't agree here mark.

the problem with "real" cork is that the portuguese producers can't make any more cork at the moment so the qualitity of the cork got a real big problem here in europe.
if the cork is too young it doesn't work.(my uncle is wine producing in the mosel region and explained it me chemically.)

there are many good wine makers who now use the "artificial" ones (though not for the more expensive wines) BECAUSE of quality.

you find it a lot of times on good austrian wine for example.

also screw bottle is very common in germany (also used for very very good white wine) - also a lot the bottles come in the traditional in 1.0 litre size (doesn't mean that they are worse).

best regards, +blackforest.

I'm with Blackforest on this one (although nothing is ever totally black and white)

Scenario 1
For years you have been bottling your wine with a closure that is reliable and doesn't affect the wine one little bit in any way.
One day a salesman knocks on your door and says: "how about this. Instead of bottling your wine as you have been doing, why not try my new method? You stick these pieces of tree-bark into the bottle. Most of the time they will form an airtight seal and when they do - oh brother! The wine tastes like nothing has happened to it! Okay, people will need a special implement to get them out (which is of no use for anything else) and sure, sometimes there will be a fissure in the bark and air will get in and ruin the odd bottle of wine, and occasionally they will be affected with a mould which will make your wine taste like shit without your having any control over it, or being able to predict, monitor or retrospectively do anything about it, but hey - that's the price of progress."

Scenario 2
You buy a case of fine red Bordeaux, and age it for a decade or more.
One day you get up early and open all twelve bottles and taste them. They all taste (slightly, but discernably) different from one another. You let a selection of friends and experts taste all twelve bottles and decide which one(s) is or are the best. They will ALL choose the bottle(s) where the corks have limited the ingress of air the most effectively.

Scenario 1 is hypothetical. Scenario 2 has been tried many times with the same results.

In the UK we have one objection to screwcaps (the word 'Stelvin' is a brand-name. And a French brand-name to boot). The objection is - image. In my opinion this image is largely based on one thing: Lambrusco.
This was/is only ever bottled with a screwcap because it is fizzy and the pressure would force out a driven cork - in fact decent Lambrusco is usually sealed with a champagne-esque cork. Visit Bologna, order a plate of oily, tomato-ey pasta and a bottle of the most expensive Lambrusco on the list and you will realise that they only ever exported the crap to the UK. The stuff that stays local can be delicious.

Having said all of this, I would personally be reluctant to open a bottle of top notch dry red wine with anything other than a corkscrew. There is definitely an interplay between the wine and the atmosphere around it that cork allows for. But almost all wine (95% in the UK) sold is drunk within an HOUR of purchase. These wines simply do not get the ageing that they might (only might) warrant. Therefore there is just no point in taking the risks as illustrated in scenario 1. For crisp fresh dry whites, such as Kiwi Sauvignon or Riesling from almost anywhere, using bits of a tree to seal them when one doesn't have to is as weird as continuing to add pine resin as a preservative. And retsina's place is, to my mind, in Greece and/or history.

Corky factoids
Factoid 1: The First Growth Clarets only use cork from Sardinia - twice the price but much more reliable. Almost all the cork in the world comes from one forest which is in Portugal (with a little in Spain).

Factoid 2: The Portuguese cork PR machine started its 'fightback' by suggesting that people no longer using cork in wine bottles was damaging their environment and threatening wildlife (principally birds). Such august institutions as the RSPB, Radio 4 and even Prince Charles (bless 'im) fell for it. It was/is the purest phooey and its promulgation reprehensible in my opinion (if the forest is that important, why not just leave it as a forest for a start?)

Factoid 3. In any case the wine industry's use of cork continues to GROW. It's just not growing by as much as wine production as a whole is. That's plain greedy.

Just my thoughts...

Rod

Mark - French supermarket managers both can and do buy local (as with cheese). Imagine the riots otherwise. I think it's one of the reasons Walmart remain scared. Similar applies in Ireland, and Tesco had a major PR disaster when they tried to 'overcome' the issue with wholly central sourcing. They soon backtracked.

Uwe - I love the Loire and visit many times a year. The wine fair in Angers is poorly timed for sure, but next time... (which direction is your 35 minutes in? I usually use a friend's place in Puy Notre Dame, although not in winter). Ever eaten at the Relais de Bonnezeaux? One of the finest authentic restaurants in the world IMO.

David, Chianti is too broad to call, but if you see any 1997s - buy, buy, buy. Avoid 2002. Try to find a wine merchant you trust. If you ever find Villa Cafaggio wines so much the better, but there are lots of good producers. You get what you pay for with Italian wine IMO.

Rod,
I live in Nantes (there IS some decent Muscadet, believe me), just let me know early enough when you come over next time and we might arrange something. Cheers
Uwe

(exiled German in France who prefers wine over beer now, a heresy, I know!)

Rod;
I must say I didn't know that not enough cork was produced for the wine industry. I also didn't know about Sardinia -- many thanks for both of those.

It's just that slicing the raw material you need off the outside of a tree every 9 or 10 years and allowing said tree to recover before you do it again seems like a pretty ideal way to manufacture anything -- would that we could do that with cars, computers, and other stuff. Particularly as once the manufactured item has done it's job, it rots away harmlessly. Industries that can do that should be valued, I think.

I presume that the cork producer's point was that if there was reduced demand for cork, the forests would have less economic value, and ergo would be more likely to be reduced thereby depriving indigenous wildlife of somewhere to live.

On consistency -- we must have opened arround 1000 bottles of wine over the last 10 years, and I cannot remember a single one which appeared to have suffered due to sub-standard sealing. We've clearly been lucky! I can, however remember one which sliced my hand open (a screw cap) and one which buggered my corkscrew (a plastic cork). I admit never to having done the Scenario 2 experiment, but would also admit to finding the slight gamble involved attractive as I don't think we should strive too hard to remove the last vestige of mystery in anything!

Oh, and it's always good to hear of Tesco experiencing a disaster in any connection. Richly deserved.

Best;

Mark

The perception of screwcaps is coupled to bottled water, Fanta, and "Prestige du Chef" wine of 2 euros.
In Belgium, Fanta is a lot better known than Lambrusco. So the Lambrusco argument to me is about as difficult to swallow as the bottle of that origin I tasted recently in an italian restaurant. That's a confident yet humble opinion with a lot to be humble about

The perception of corks is coupled to Petrus and Rothschild.
To disrupt that perception you'd need to launch expensive decorative screwcaps that are collectibles in themselves and add a good dose of science flavor. Then propagate the new approach down to cheaper screwcaps.

Uwe, I'm not aware of the view that Muscadet is not any good.
There does seem to be a common view among those in the know that attempts to age Muscadet are a waste of effort.
Having only tasted a few bottles of Muscadet that all aged well (the last one was from Braud and over 20 years - he's deceased since)
I'm not sure what to think of that. Probably i tasted the exceptions.
I've got Louvetrie in the cellar at the moment, for regular use.

Alexander,
as to old white wines, I'll stick to Burgundy wines. Although some efforts are made to sell older Muscadets, I drink them fairly young. Good wine-makers (you can't go wrong with them) are Guy Bossard (La Bretonnière)or Jo Landron
(Louvetrie, I believe), those are the two I buy regularly.
Cheers
Uwe

quote:

Originally posted by AlexanderVH:
The perception of screwcaps is coupled to bottled water, Fanta, and "Prestige du Chef" wine of 2 euros.
In Belgium, Fanta is a lot better known than Lambrusco. So the Lambrusco argument to me is about as difficult to swallow as the bottle of that origin I tasted recently in an italian restaurant. That's a confident yet humble opinion with a lot to be humble about

The perception of corks is coupled to Petrus and Rothschild.
To disrupt that perception you'd need to launch expensive decorative screwcaps that are collectibles in themselves and add a good dose of science flavor. Then propagate the new approach down to cheaper screwcaps.

Hi Alexander - well I know less about Belgium, obviously, but in Britain I am convinced that the fact that cheap soft drinks come with a screwcap is not the cause of the image problem (so do many expensive spirits), rather that cheap wine does or used to, and here that particular wine was largely lambrusco - wine in plastic bottles never really took off in the UK.

We appear able to divorce the fact that both Petrus and Irn Bru come in a glass bottle, so quite why a similar closure should cheapen one is beyond me.

And to your second very valid point - with a swoop of the wand - ta-da Perhaps Uwe can help me confirm how good Florent Baumard's wines are. No picture alas, but it does look good, really.

Mark, the problem is probably more that you have never recorded the cork-tainted or mildly oxidised wines that you have opened as being such (unless you really have been superhumanly lucky - the industry estimate of bottles of wine that are corked or cork-oxidised runs from 4.2 - 10%, depending on which survey you believe). So many of the dull, flat uninspiring or "earthy" wines you have drunk over the years might well have tasted otherwise if it hadn't been for them sporting a cork, certainly - and here is the nub of the issue - a cheap cork.

There is really very little wrong with the 54mm , every-ninth-(or seventh)-year harvested cork, cut by hand and never batch-sterilised, but such corks only ever make it into 'cost-no-object' wines (they can be up to 50p each).
The problem is greater with - if not the preserve of - cheap corks, especially the cheapest agglomerate corks (if you ever see a cork that looks as though it is sweepings from the floor held together with glue, then believe your eyes).

So it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Continuing the use of cork for dry white wines designed or destined for early consumption (where there is no conceivable ADVANTAGE in using a cork) is just plain silly.

True, some Portuguese farmers may have to look for a different way of selling or new customers to sell to (cork as a substance is useful for lots of other things, floor tiles and even electrical isolation I believe) But they are having to anyway, not least because they are drinking so much less wine themselves (per capita consumption in Portugal has dropped from 60L to 40L in ten years). But I can't accept this syllogism as a valid argument for everyone continuing to use an inferior method of doing something just because that's how it's always been done.
What industry selling to the public is correct nowadays to accept an avoidable +-10% failure rate?

If you add to my jokey scenario 1 above "and it will keep me in a job" it doesn't make the proposition any more appealing.

And the environmental argument doesn't work either really. Screwcaps are almost always largely recyclable aluminium, whilst cork sterilisation uses all manner of chemical nasties and the bottles are usually then capsuled with an environmentally gruesome plastic (admittedly a step up from lead).

Consumer acceptance in the UK to screwcapped wine has gone from 95% against (10 years ago) to 56% ambivalent with 20% in favour in one of last year's surveys. A huge turnaround. It won't ever happen for Vintage Port, nor should it, but today's 'everyday' wine drinker surely deserves the consistency that modern methods can guarantee.

Time for my morning glass of Champagne (that's a wine that will always use cork...) I think.

Hic

Rod

I'm off to a wine tasting evening today. In the past my friends have attended these and rolled home in the early hours and not functioned properly for a few days after. They gave me this ticket for Christmas, so we're all off there tonight and I'm just concerned about having a survival technique. There is no way I want to be wasting my weekend with a hangover and I just don't like getting into that sort of state anyway, but I am worried that it'll take some doing to avoid it. I've not been to one of these before so don't know what to expect, and I don't seem to get anything sensible out of my friends. Wish me luck.

Eat first (and bread/biscuits during). Spit some of the wines out (if it really is a wine tasting rather than a drinking session then spitoons will be provided) this is actually essential to be able to make rational judgements and decisions about the later wines.

Alternate tasting/drinking the wines with equal quantities of water, with a big glass of water before bed. On no account contemplate driving of course. (Even entirely spat out, as few as twenty tasting samples will take you over the driving limit as alcohol is absorbed in the mouth).

Enjoy yourself!

Thanks Rod. I'll follow your advice to the letter.

Ah, a newbee eh? Exercise spitting at home before you go.
Normally there's a spitoon nearby though with the real pros the spitoons are just placed in a few corners, and they just spit across the room.
They don't miss, and nobody ever gets hit(imagine the humiliation for the spitter), but it can be a bit scary in the beginning.
With the right lighting the scene looks like a Star Wars shootout at times.

The first line was valid advice.

[QUOTE]With the right lighting the scene looks like a Star Wars shootout at times.[QUOTE]

Still trying to build a decent opinion on screwcaps here. On the risk of being boring.

In the context of wine I think the problem images are "A cork is a careful enclosure for delicate content" versus "a screwcap is a cheap seal for robust or cheap content".
I didn't know that Lambrusco was the dominant cheap wine in England. It's hardly known here. So ok, Lambrusco can be a big reinforcing factor there.

I'd agree that a cheap wine with a screwcap is a stronger reinforcer of the 'cheap seal' image than a water bottle with a screwcap because it's 'closer'.
On the other hand I think the image problem is old and introduction of screwcaps was limited to cheap wine to start with just because nobody,
including the winemakers, considered them to be anything else than a way of saving money. Same with a crown cap.
Those cheap drinks with screwcaps for immediate consumption remain very widespread which should add to their impact .

Whisky with screwcap is further removed from wine,and at the same time it's more robust.

Now I get the impression that new image is to be 'good reliable seal'.
It doesn't look easy to me to get rid of the 'cheap' aspect this way, but I'm surprised at how fast acceptation is growing already.
It 's a big deal if expensive wines move towards screwcaps, but it would help too if there existed a screwcap that costs 5 pounds and that only expensive wines can afford.

I wonder what the most expensive screwcaps cost now.

About "all glass": Even if people can intellectually divorce Bru from Petrus I think it wouldn't feel right to have a Chateau Petrus (heh-heh) that's sold in a 1liter bottle,
with transparent glass(yet opaque to UV), and with an 'ordinary waterbottle' shape.
The water bottle becomes too similar then. Maybe this would be a pure matter of image. With the screwcap there is also prejudice, and even reasonable doubt(oxidisation-reduction story).

So cork is misery. Your storage has to adapt to it, the wine can be ruined completely and in the best case the cork still deteriorates over time. You have to drink a wine earlier than intended. It's hard and messy to extract the old cork.
But the misery is a story. You open an old bottle and the cork has a story. I like stories. Screwcaps don't have stories.

Nothing but goodies lately. Last week's 'Carlinet' from Poderi Rosso Giovanni was impressive. Didn't get to open the Infinito.

Friends invited me to a tasting of spanish wines in a shop. In the reds there wasn't a bottle that didn't have something interesting.
Took two bottles of beautiful Masia Carreras (Costa Brava) at about 22euro a piece and one pinot noir Enrique Mendoza (Alicante) to try out later at the 'pinot sessions'.

One of the whites was lightly corked btw.

At night we drank a Vina Magana gran reserva 1985 that we bought at half price. A bit unsure about that bottle.
Good allright but past the top maybe? I'll have another go at it soon.
The otherwise dense cork had a weak side that was all wet except for the last mm's.

And today with the fish I opened a Sancerre from Millerioux.
It's very nice and I still have a few bottles left from 2002. Cork with filled pores.

Rod -- what is the real retail price of wine?

In the dreaded supermarkets they often sell wine originally labelled at say £6.99 for £4.99

How does your breakdown costs work out for the wine?. Or should one just assume that it is a £4.99 a bottle wine even when it sells at £6.99.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Or should one just assume that it is a £4.99 a bottle wine even when it sells at £6.99.

Nail. Head. Direct Hit.