Naim streamer news?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
Given a good connection, there is no reason wireless doesn't sound as good as wired. Wireless is suseptible to give drop outs; but with good signal the data getting to the NDX (etc.) is identical with wired or wires Ethernet.

Eloise

According to Malcolm Steward, from the link posted earlier:

"the NDX does wireless “for convenience,” says Naim. Which means use ethernet if you want the best sounding, most reliable performance"

I'm sorry ... but if Naim think that then someone needs to be reading Networking for Dummies a bit more...

As long as there are no dropouts, the data transmitted via Wireless or Wired ethernet is going to be the same. Wired IS better as it provides a more reliable service and (with an ethernet switch) the packets can be directed from UPnP server direct to UPnP renderer without having to be sent to everything; and also if using a Wireless handset for control thats an additional Wireless connection required also adding to potential problems but it's more about reliability and interference.

The sort of "sound quality" issues with Wireless audio streaming you will notice. It's not the sort of subtle differences like between cable construction, it's more like the difference between a well soldered cable and one where wiggling it cause signal breakup (to give a bad analogy).

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Please don't anybody suggest yet again that I am missing out on all the flexibility ( and confusion ) that Naim offers and start on about connection possibilities I don't have because I am stuck with just a lonely little industry standard network interface That just doesn't work as an argument and we've raked those old coals enough.

I don't think many people think YOU should have to buy into Naim, but equally just because Naim don't offer the solution YOU want (i.e. one box) the solutions Naim offer aren't WRONG.

Eloise

I guess that if they say wired is best sounding, then presumably they will have tried it and come to a conclusion. But maybe there is a difference between using the wireless adapter in the NDX and the wired connection, perhaps due to effects on power supply rails etc - it's not unheard of.
But what if the wireless bit is off-board? I used an Airport Express with my HDX, so as far as the HDX was concerned, it was connected by wired connection.
I can categorically say that there was no difference in sound quality between using that connection to my router, and using a cable, and I think that's how it should be, but that was my personal experience.
Yes, there is a risk of using wireless, with drop-outs (especially when the neighbour mows the lawn) but I can live with that. Mostly.
Incidentally, I would have thought that good buffering could get round minimal network interruptions. The DS seems to cope very well
Cheers
John

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
However, I guess what you would like is something more basic - kind of like a UnitiQute without the amplification and pre-amp stages, a relatively simple onboard DAC for stand-alone, and a high quality s/pdif for connection to the DAC. Whether this is in the works, I cannot say, but I would guess it fulfils your requirements?

Richard ... this may already be in the works, but wouldn't a UnitiQute with no SPDIF inputs, a basic (5i CD level) DAC for analogue output and - maybe switchable like CD5XS - HQ SPDIF output for connection to the DAC, not be pretty easy to engineer from the existing UnitiQute? This seams to be exactly what some people are requesting to match with their DAC.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
I guess that if they say wired is best sounding, then presumably they will have tried it and come to a conclusion. But maybe there is a difference between using the wireless adapter in the NDX and the wired connection, perhaps due to effects on power supply rails etc - it's not unheard of.

You are correct ... I suppose I should have said properly engineered there is no reason wireless should sound any worse than wired Ethernet connection. You could add effects of pumping RF signal into the air as another explanation for degradation of SQ with wireless.

Generally I think Naim's comments on wired vs wireless was more down to potential for drop outs, etc. Reliability rather than sound quality (though jitters and drop outs are negative sound quality).

Eloise

I agree with you; there should be no difference how the digital data is transmitted. Digital data is phenomenally resilient in the face of most attempts to degrade it, including RF. I am as surprised, not to mention disappointed, as you are that according to Steward at least Naims wireless sounds worse than their ethernet.

I suppose it's not just ones and zeroes .. it's Naim ones and zeros ..

Putting a radio transmitter inside the same box can probably wreck a lot of stuff.

I've disabled both WiFi and Bluetooth on the MacMini I have in my Fraim as a complement to the HDX. And use an SSD inside. And it, the Hiface Evo and the projector runs behind an isolation transformer so their switched PSU's will not interfere.

The HDX still sound better though.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
I agree with you; there should be no difference how the digital data is transmitted. Digital data is phenomenally resilient in the face of most attempts to degrade it, including RF. I am as surprised, not to mention disappointed, as you are that according to Steward at least Naims wireless sounds worse than their ethernet.

I suppose it's not just ones and zeroes .. it's Naim ones and zeros ..

I think Naim are being sensibly cautious here; signal integrity is critical and usually this can only be guaranteed in most installs via wired ethernet. There's no reason why wireless shouldn't be just as good, but with so many variables at play from one person's wireless network to anothers, it makes sense for Naim to express a preference.

Put it this way, if you've just bought a nice shiny bit of Naim and you connect it to a poor wireless network and you get drop-outs etc.. you're most likely going to blame the Naim kit rather than the other stuff causing the problem.

Eloise, that's what I was driving at. The key will be price and performance. If a Unitiqute-lite is only a little bit less in cost then performance is going to have to be better to justify the loss of the amp section. I guess it's possible. However, right now I'm kind of wishing I had a Unitiqute. It would be perfect for taking away with me in the suitcase with my 'Pod. Instead I'm stuck with the iPod connected to something really rather average. Still, it's music (of a sort) so can't complain too much...

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
I think Naim are being sensibly cautious here; signal integrity is critical and usually this can only be guaranteed in most installs via wired ethernet. There's no reason why wireless shouldn't be just as good, but with so many variables at play from one person's wireless network to anothers, it makes sense for Naim to express a preference.

Put it this way, if you've just bought a nice shiny bit of Naim and you connect it to a poor wireless network and you get drop-outs etc.. you're most likely going to blame the Naim kit rather than the other stuff causing the problem.

I quite understand where you are coming from Richard ... if they say "for best sound quality use wired ethernet" then when the user who is using wireless comes back and says the sound is crappy, the dealer can say "well we did say use wired!"

Its the difference between the theoretical and practical.

On the other matter, I'm still not sure if removing the pre/power and other non-required gubbings from the UnitiQute would actually improve it if used with other pre/intergrated amp or with the DAC. It may just increase it's cost as it would be more "exclusive" product. Its a shame that in the config of the UnitiQute you can't disable / power down the pre-power amp section and fix the line output.

Eloise

quote:

I don't think many people think YOU should have to buy into Naim, but equally just because Naim don't offer the solution YOU want (i.e. one box) the solutions Naim offer aren't WRONG.

Eloise

Eloise

I wasn't implying Naim solutions are wrong. We are all capable of making up our minds about what to buy. In my case I was motivated by several things not the least of which was VFM IN MY MODE OF OPERATION, which I think you are aware of. Starting cold with no existing HiFi system the Naim solutions are excellent. For those with quality HiFi systems already in place the choice is more complex.

I was alluding to the concept that Naim's upgrade strategy is king, and that other solutions are suspect. The argument about PS upgrades for example is flawed if viewed from a different standpoint. What if other highly skilled HiFi companies DO NOT NEED to sell PS upgrades because they have the ability to build a superb PS into the box in the first place and you are effectively buying the equivalent of Naim's commercially astute PS upgrade right there in that single box?

To take a specific example used a little earlier here. Upgrading an NDX for example by paying out for a 555PS is MORE expensive than upgrading a Majik DS by trading it in on a new Akurate DS and so it goes. More than one way to skin a cat...
regards
Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
To take a specific example used a little earlier here. Upgrading an NDX for example by paying out for a 555PS is MORE expensive than upgrading a Majik DS by trading it in on a new Akurate DS and so it goes. More than one way to skin a cat...
regards
Geoff

Though it remains to be seen the relative performance of these two approaches, and the performance level of a NDX compared with other devices...

Anyway, sorry if I misread your comments before anyway Geoff - it seams like for some people nothing that Naim could have released would be right.

Eloise

quote:

for some people nothing that Naim could have released would be right.

Eloise

I would give the NDX serious attention if it was a streaming version of the nDAC but since Naim themselves state that it can be IMPROVED by upgrading with the nDAC it is not so attractive to ME. Others may think that having a DAC running into a 2nd better DAC is the way to go to implement streamed audio.


Also see my question on the other thread. I am wondering what the reply will be.

regards
geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
I would give the NDX serious attention if it was a streaming version of the nDAC but since Naim themselves state that it can be IMPROVED by upgrading with the nDAC it is not so attractive to ME. Others may think that having a DAC running into a 2nd better DAC is the way to go to implement streamed audio.

Now thats where I have a problem with some people's comments Geoff... You don't know how it sounds, yet you're righting it off already because it has the OPTION to upgrade it later.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
Richard ... this may already be in the works, but wouldn't a UnitiQute with no SPDIF inputs, a basic (5i CD level) DAC for analogue output and - maybe switchable like CD5XS - HQ SPDIF output for connection to the DAC, not be pretty easy to engineer from the existing UnitiQute? This seams to be exactly what some people are requesting to match with their DAC.

Why bother engineering a product that already exists as a subset of a shipping product? I see no opportunity for a cheaper unit here, given the sound-quality requirement that it have a linear power supply.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
was alluding to the concept that Naim's upgrade strategy is king, and that other solutions are suspect. The argument about PS upgrades for example is flawed if viewed from a different standpoint. What if other highly skilled HiFi companies DO NOT NEED to sell PS upgrades because they have the ability to build a superb PS into the box in the first place and you are effectively buying the equivalent of Naim's commercially astute PS upgrade right there in that single box?

To take a specific example used a little earlier here. Upgrading an NDX for example by paying out for a 555PS is MORE expensive than upgrading a Majik DS by trading it in on a new Akurate DS and so it goes. More than one way to skin a cat...
regards
Geoff

What happens when that in-built supply has the capacity to be improved upon or upgraded? Where does all of the electronic refuse go? Who performs the upgrade in remote export markets?

In some hi-fi markets, the used-equipment / trade-in food chain operates differently - Naim's approach supports longer product retention by the end-user, with the sense that every building block can be bettered if and when the funds permit, without taking a bath on the original purchase price.

It also encourages better manufacturer turnover of one-size-fits-many solutions, which develops into the sort of independence and customer loyalty that drives user forums such as this.

So many different configurations of building blocks, so little time!

quote:

Now thats where I have a problem with some people's comments Geoff... You don't know how it sounds, yet you're righting it off already because it has the OPTION to upgrade it later

Eloise,

If you think logically then the outcome of an audition of the bare NDX is irrelevant. Since it can be upgraded with the nDAC then its performance bare must peak at a certain point below the current nDAC.

It's got nothing at all to do with "do the dem", "trust your ears" etc etc.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

quote:

Originally posted by Eloise:
Richard ... this may already be in the works, but wouldn't a UnitiQute with no SPDIF inputs, a basic (5i CD level) DAC for analogue output and - maybe switchable like CD5XS - HQ SPDIF output for connection to the DAC, not be pretty easy to engineer from the existing UnitiQute? This seams to be exactly what some people are requesting to match with their DAC.

Why bother engineering a product that already exists as a subset of a shipping product? I see no opportunity for a cheaper unit here, given the sound-quality requirement that it have a linear power supply.

Oh I agree ... It's just everyone keeps saying the UnitiQute is no good as a source for (a) 5i / XS series pre-amps / integrated because there's not fixed level output and it contains a pre-amp and power amp or (b) for the DAC because it has a DAC already along with pre-amp and poweramp sections. Cost wise I don't really see there would be a saving if these were removed so it's just down to paranoia about SQ.

As I commented in reply to Richard ... is there any (in firmware perhaps) way that you could adapt/engineer the UnitiQute so that the unused sections were powered down - stopping any worries people may have that these sections may affect SQ when used as analogue source or digital into the DAC. I guess the people wanting to use a DAC see that with the new CD players (with SPDIF output) Naim go to great pains to suggest that you need to switch between analogue output and digital output because implementing the digital output affects the SQ of the analogue stage, but now Naim are saying that we don't need a digital output streamer because two products (UnitiQute and NDX) already do this though they also have a parallel output SPDIF connection. Note: I don't know how they are connected internally so maybe this doesn't matter... maybe some white papers on the UPnP range wouldn't go a miss?

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by CraigB:

quote:

Now thats where I have a problem with some people's comments Geoff... You don't know how it sounds, yet you're righting it off already because it has the OPTION to upgrade it later

Eloise,

If you think logically then the outcome of an audition of the bare NDX is irrelevant. Since it can be upgraded with the nDAC then its performance bare must peak at a certain point below the current nDAC.

It's got nothing at all to do with "do the dem", "trust your ears" etc etc.

I think you're missing the point, or I'm missing making the point I'm trying to make...

The performance of the NDX bare IS relevant when you are saying if Naim have missed the mark (IMO).

Making the assumption that the NDX is part of the classic range, that pits it against the Linn Akurate DS. If bare it competes well, sounding as good as the Linn Akurate, then Geoff's (and others) comments that he doesn't want it because it has the option of the PS and DAC upgrades is (again IMO) rather missing the point of OPTIONAL UPGRADES.

I'm sure many people bought the CDX2 as a CD player without the PS, then some later were able to increase the performance by adding the XPS2. It was a good CD player without the PS, it's a better CD player with the OPTIONAL UPGRADES.

Now I agree, currently there is no Naim 1 (or even 2) box offerings to compete against the Linn Klimax DS...

Eloise

Indeed, the NDX is pitched at CDX2/HDX level (see website), and it shares the same DAC as HDX. It's a good product for those who don't have Naim, and are looking at the DS market. I'm not totally familiar with the ADS sound, but I suppose it's there or thereabouts, although Geoff replaced his CDS3 with one.
What I don't understand, though, is why the NDX is said to be comfortable in the same system as an HDX or CDX2. If I had a CDX2 and wanted to get into streaming, I might trade it for an NDX. If I had an HDX, I think I'd have difficulty in seeing the point of an NDX at all.
But hey, I can see how it fits into a comprehensive Naim catalogue, and will attract a lot of new customers to the brand in an infant market

Now I agree, currently there is no Naim 1 (or even 2) box offerings to compete against the Linn Klimax DS...


Eloise wait until you here the NDX

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:
Now I agree, currently there is no Naim 1 (or even 2) box offerings to compete against the Linn Klimax DS...

Eloise wait until you here the NDX

Hey Paul ... thats what I keep telling everyone else to do...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:
Now I agree, currently there is no Naim 1 (or even 2) box offerings to compete against the Linn Klimax DS...

Currently, eh?!


Here's hoping ..

Is this a hint of an announcement announcement?

quote:

Making the assumption that the NDX is part of the classic range, that pits it against the Linn Akurate DS. If bare it competes well, sounding as good as the Linn Akurate, then Geoff's (and others) comments that he doesn't want it because it has the option of the PS and DAC upgrades is (again IMO) rather missing the point of OPTIONAL UPGRADES.

Oh dear..Since the nDAC is hard put to compete with the ADS AND is considered an upgrade to the NDX according to Naim, I conclude, on available information, that it certainly will NOT compete bare with the ADS....Available information, thats where I am coming from. I shall not hold my breath for the HDX to suddenly sound as good as the nDAC either.


regards
geoff

quote:

now we PC Stockton trumpeting the NDX 'choices' against all-comers.

The NDX isn't for me as I already have the DAC and dont require streaming. So I am not championing anything.

But I dont see why everyone is so upset. What is the point of constant complaining? As a DAC owner, bitching about this is like lamenting the loss of the Aro when I have have ZERO plans of buying one.

What is your point Allen? Not only with your comment about me, and your disdain of this product. If it is simply to disparage me, well done!

-Patrick

Patrick, it's very simple. Only guesses but Allen likely would have been pleased with adding a streamer to the current Naim DAC or offering a product akin to stipping all non Streaming functions from the Unitiqute to be used in conjunction with the Naim DAC (and he probably would be fine with 2K USD stripped Unitiqute!). At this point in time, it appears Naim doesn't want to sell proper streaming for less than 3K USD. It's always important to note that Naim of course is nice enough to offer the standalone DAC for your own implementation (as you routinely make clear).

So my guess is that the Unitiserve/DAC or NDX/DAC combo is on par with the Akurate. If the NDX box competes with the Akurate then the product is a resounding success. There are of course other players but this forum seems to focus on Linn's solutions a great deal.

Take on it's own, if the NDX provides CDX2 sound quality with radio, streaming, one box, and upgradeability via DAC or Power Supplies, then the product can be judged a resounding success on this alone. Naim has managed to lower the cost of CDX2 level sound while integrating into modern digital audio. Nice!