Modifying non-Naim gear

"This is the Naim Audio forum - we cannot sanction discussion of modifications to internal components of Naim equipment and this also extends, at the Moderators' discretion, to products from other manufacturers."

This crops up occasionally - "discretion" is promised/threatened.

Blimey! HiFi used to be a hobby rather than a high street shopping experience.

I run my nait3 on vegetable oil

Many products even a Sonos has an expensive mod which claims to make it "audiophile." One DAC which I demoed has a series of modifications that can be added onto the "base" DAC, all done by the manufacturer and if all mods are added can add about an extra $1K.

I hated the DAC and there are no demo modded DACs available.

I'd be careful as most mods I've seen add anywhere from $400 and up to the cost and I doubt that they really add much.

Gary1

quote:

I'd be careful as most mods I've seen add anywhere from $400 and up to the cost and I doubt that they really add much.

Careful now, that sounds like a very closed mind - especially on the forum of a company that supplies some of the most expensive manufacturer mods around in the form of the (x)Cap's....

Before anyone gets too jumpy I didn't say they were bad value but they are not inexpensive.

Open your mind young man.

Cheers

Jim

quote:

Careful now, that sounds like a very closed mind - especially on the forum of a company that supplies some of the most expensive manufacturer mods around in the form of the (x)Cap's....

I suspect the point was that whilst some-one may be able to put something together which is marketed as an upgrade that is not neccessarily a guarantee of actual performance improvement. The initial product has to be designed with upgradability in mind ( fittings, wiring, boards etc.) as well as the actual upgrade being of good quality.

But as ever, my advice would be, listen to it and if you like it, buy it and spend more time enjoying your music, life's too short.

Barrie

I've put a regulated linear supply on the Wadia and while it got better than it was with the switching supply, it is still far from state of the art. I actually like the device in any configuration for those that want to use and improve the ipod source but it's just good and not great and pretty far from a 'true audiophile source' though that description could be more encompassing for others. I've done direct comparisons to PC/TC etc. though I may have left the blindfold in the drawer. Here's an interseting fact. There is no ground connection on the rca dig out. Only the hot pin is connected. Of course due to the lack of a strict double blind assisted demo with verification, this may only be my imagination.

This is my belief too, that you can't go far wrong by fitting a better power supply.
Not sure about all these "superclocks" and the like 'cos I can't understand the theory.

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
Open your mind young man.

Cheers

Jim

Jim my mind is open, just not my wallet. The problem is not the upgrade. But, the product has to sound good first. Would you buy a Naim PSU if the bare product sounded awful?

If the product does sound good, then is the upgrade worthwhile from a cost/performance ratio. Even a Sonos at $350 isn't worth adding an additional $400 in "upgrades."

Gary

Gary

It as something of a throwaway line on the Xcap's vs other "mods" but I guess my point was that we should be careful of making broad brush statements.

No big deal. It looks like I will be back in Chicago pretty soon (quick trip) and maybe I can meet you and Rega1 for a beer.

Cheers

Jim

Sounds good. Looking forward to it.

Gary

quote:

Blimey! HiFi used to be a hobby rather than a high street shopping experience. Smile

You mean faffing about with electronics, or listening to music?

If you can't sort one out from the other, your problem lies there...

Joe

quote:

You mean faffing about with electronics, or listening to music?

If you can't sort one out from the other, your problem lies there...

The fact that you say it is a "problem" implies that one is superior or more noble than the other which is not the case. I'll also bet that 95%+ of the members of this forum actually love pfaffing around with electronics as part of the hi-fi "experience", why else would they/we spend so much time and effort dressing cables, tightening bolts etc.

If was really all about the music than you would be a member of a music forum and not a hi-fi manufacturers forum.

Happy weekend.

Jim

quote:

If was really all about the music than you would be a member of a music forum and not a hi-fi manufacturers forum.

Just because I don't post there doesn't mean I'm NOT there...

quote:

I'll also bet that 95%+ of the members of this forum actually love pfaffing around with electronics as part of the hi-fi "experience", why else would they/we spend so much time and effort dressing cables, tightening bolts etc.

I won't take that bet!

Why DO you spend so much time 'tightening bolts' and 'dressing cables'?

Can you not see how absurd it all is?

Modifying something that's cheap does two things:

1) It defeats the purpose of being 'cheap'

2) It loses money, because you could have saved the tweak money and purchased a fundamentally better device.

Now I'm not saying you mustn't tweak, or that you don't enjoy it. I'm sure you really, really do.

Personally, I just can't be bothered - I'm off buying/listening to music.

Or spending my time baiting tweakers.

quote:

I'll also bet that 95%+ of the members of this forum actually love faffing around with electronics as part of the hi-fi "experience", why else would they/we spend so much time and effort dressing cables, tightening bolts etc.

There are bolts I can tighten?

Though I haven't tweaked myself, I have heard some good results, replace a bit with a better bit makes complete sense. Be it from an opamp in a $100 dac to a flatcap on a cd5, same difference varying results.

After 15 years of marriage fiddling and tweaking is one of my few remaining pleasures .
Don't take it away !

Joe

quote:

Or spending my time baiting tweakers.

Good try Joe but you're not baiting me as I am not a tweaker.

I did notice though that you didn't respond as to whether being interested in hi-fi, or admitting being interested in hi-fi for itself was less noble or inferior in some way to those who claim that "it's all about the music".

Mind you, the fact that you were at pains to point out you were off to buy and listen to music seems to make it clear where you stand.

Anyway, this is off topic for here and may start a new thread for this later.

Cheers

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Occean:

quote:

I'll also bet that 95%+ of the members of this forum actually love faffing around with electronics as part of the hi-fi "experience", why else would they/we spend so much time and effort dressing cables, tightening bolts etc.

There are bolts I can tighten?

Though I haven't tweaked myself, I have heard some good results, replace a bit with a better bit makes complete sense. Be it from an opamp in a $100 dac to a flatcap on a cd5, same difference varying results.

I get the comparison but they're actually quite different. A better op amp may not actually sound better in circuit where as a factory upgrade like a flatcap always will. It's the fundamental difference between a mod and an upgrade. There's also a fundamentally better philosophy regarding a PS vs op amp. Hard to appreciate better bits when the supply isn't all that it can be.

Doesn't mean a cheap bit of kit can't be improved with some judicious 'voicing' but it will never be truely good unless some important basics aren't addressed which generally costs more than it's worth even if you got lucky in the endevor. There's still a fun factor and learning curve that can be entertaining so I'm not against it as long as we understand that good engineering is very different than changing op amps or coupling caps.

Here's a nice tweek. Tighten the screw on the face of your tweeters. The cabinet screws don't do that much on tweeters but the ones close to the center that hold them together sure do and I find most people don't make sure that these are snug. Don't strip them.

John

I agree that my comparison was flawed but it was just a throwaway line originally.

I can't really disagree with your summation.

Cheers

Jim

E H. I thought you made that clear in later posts and was really just adding to the post I quoted. Hope you can make it to shop too when your in town.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Here's a nice tweek. Tighten the screw on the face of your tweeters. The cabinet screws don't do that much on tweeters but the ones close to the center that hold them together sure do and I find most people don't make sure that these are snug. Don't strip them.

A dealer did this once to a pair of Neat Mystiques (3-4 months after purchase) that I was using at the time, and the results were quite spectacular.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
I've put a regulated linear supply on the Wadia and while it got better than it was with the switching supply, it is still far from state of the art. I actually like the device in any configuration for those that want to use and improve the ipod source but it's just good and not great and pretty far from a 'true audiophile source' though that description could be more encompassing for others. I've done direct comparisons to PC/TC etc. though I may have left the blindfold in the drawer. Here's an interseting fact. There is no ground connection on the rca dig out. Only the hot pin is connected. Of course due to the lack of a strict double blind assisted demo with verification, this may only be my imagination.

I have had extensive mods done to the power supply for my Wadia Dock; I got a Bybee Slipstream purifier to reduce noise on the input. The stock unit uses standard LDO regulators from ROHM, the BD39350 (3.3V) and 05CC0 (5.0V). The ripple rejection of these regulators in a poor 58 db up to 500 Hz which is reduced on the frequency range to a very poor 25 db at approx. 22 KHz. It can be calculated from the ripple rejection that noise is in the region of 60µV and increasing with frequency. The regulators were replaced with higher spec. items. The stock Tantalum bypass capacitors were replaced with Polymer capacitors (S-CAP), this type uses a conductive polymer as its electrolyte and is probably superior to any Tantalum for ultra low ESR, and transient response. Also had polymers fitted to de-couple the PCM2706 chip, lowest noise here is crucial to execute the USB to SP/DIF conversion without losses.
As you suggest the original disgrace of a phono socket needed to be replaced by a high grade Neutrik RCA, wired with pure Silver wire. I also had a Bybee Slipstream purifier fitted for the digital output signal.

I have been testing the upgraded Wadia/iPod digital co-ax output directly against PC/iTunes USB output into the same DAC (with a switchable input for ease of comparison). I also have the same music on CD played on my Naim CDS2 (using its own DAC natch!).

My findings differ from yours in that the Wadia/iPod digital source (lossless files of course) provides the most accurate, detailed and clear insight into the original recordings. I found it easiest to tell using a top level headphone amp and phones.

The modified Wadia/120Gb iPod costs more than a Mac-mini and has less memory, but as a source I'd put it up against anything in a blind test.

The Never Connected Power Supply for the Wadia iTransport - anybody tried it.

Interesting post Rockingdoc - not sure I understand it all, but I think the Wadia/iPod digital source is a good way to go now that digital music has been forced upon us.

ATB Rotf