Uniti Iphone/Itouch app

quote:

My comment about needing both n-Serve and n-Stream apps was for Naim's "advertised" system using local output of UnitiStream for main system plus NaimUniti / UnitiQute in other "zones".

n-Serve would not typically be used in a UnitiSystem context (i.e., full control of UPnP network endpoints and then some), but rather a traditional Naim two-channel context with a DAC, SUPERNAIT, etc. for local playback.

With the advent of UnitiSystem-only retailers on the horizon (at least in the U.S.), the separation of these two functions in a handheld app is both sensible and distinct.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

quote:

My comment about needing both n-Serve and n-Stream apps was for Naim's "advertised" system using local output of UnitiStream for main system plus NaimUniti / UnitiQute in other "zones".

n-Serve would not typically be used in a UnitiSystem context (i.e., full control of UPnP network endpoints and then some), but rather a traditional Naim two-channel context with a DAC, SUPERNAIT, etc. for local playback.

With the advent of UnitiSystem-only retailers on the horizon (at least in the U.S.), the separation of these two functions in a handheld app is both sensible and distinct.

With respect David, not all your colleguge agree with you there. In an interview with HiFi Choice (October 2010 issue #337) Paul Stephenson talks about using the UnitiServe "as the heart of the UnitiSystem [...] act[ing] as a high performance UPnP server and at the same time feed[ing] the highest quality digital output to a Naim DAC."

In this situation both apps would be needed.

Eloise

Eloise,in this situation with serve being used to stream to uniti or qute or any other naim client you would need to use the nstream app only. Access to serve could be by the web browser or also the serve app if you wished but not really required.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:
Eloise,in this situation with serve being used to stream to uniti or qute or any other naim client you would need to use the nstream app only. Access to serve could be by the web browser or also the serve app if you wished but not really required.

Yes I quite understand that...

• The nStream app controls playback (and full functionality) of the NaimUniti and UnitiQute.
  
• The nServe app controls playback on the UnitiServe via it's digital output (or HDX via digital or analogue). Alternatively the UnitiServe could be controlled via web-browser.

My point was if you have a full Uniti System as is "advertised" on the website utilising both the UnitiServe to a DAC (or SuperNAIT) and also in a separate room the UnitiQute - a setup which you were talking about in your HiFi Choice interview - you'd need both applications (or a handy web-browser for the UnitiServe).

I quite agree with whoever said that, in the context of the price of the Uniti components, the additional £25 expense of the applications are minimal, but other companies are providing similar applications free of (additional) charge. Connon Price above mused the point that if they were "free" all users would be paying, but surely the same could be argued about the bundled cables that are supplied with each Naim unit - not every end user uses these cables - especially if buying a CD player for a non-Naim system. Also you show photos of the Naim UnitiSystem with an iPod Touch (or iPhones) surely this is advertising the fact that this is how it's (best) controlled - there's not remote control in apart from this in sight.

At the end of the day, Naim are charging £25 for the application because they can. And that equates to another £15 or so profit for the company (guesstimate taking out VAT, Apple's cut, etc) - though might not £15 of good be worth more? Sonos, Meridian / Sooloos, Yamaha, Samsung, etc. (all have "free" iOS apps for their devices) all obviously think so! And mostly on kit costing far less than the Uniti components.

Eloise

The main reason I might see to give the app away is to keep Apple from getting any more money, though they probably wouldn't rely on the sales of this app to boost their quarterly profits anyway.

I guess I just don't see your point exactly. Sure they could give the app away and gain some good will, but only the people who get the app will get the happy feeling. It is fine that other companies are giving out their apps for no additional charge, but that is perhaps because they are over charging for their products and can afford to absorb the cost of making the software into the sales of their products or they have much higher volume of products so the cost is spread wide. Who knows? But to say they charge this amount because they can get away with it makes Naim out to be some sort of free market bully. People should be paid for work that is of value to those who would use their product and a profit is the money left over to build equity for whatever. But you know all this.

I still think it makes sense to charge for the app for the reasons I gave previously. Naim run a good business and make a product that delivers in so many ways. I imagine that this pricing decision is well considered by them.

The app is not required to run the machine. It is a premium way to interface for many. Would it similarly vex you to see a marketing image with a uniti qute plugged in with a Powerline? An option shown to maximize a product with no standard plug anywhere in sight? Probably not.

@Eloise - since when did any piece of Sooloos hardware cost less than any of the UnitiSystem products?

As for Sonos, they also make their own, paid-for touchscreen remote.

Is it the economy of scale that is so elusive in the wisdom of your post?

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
@Eloise - since when did any piece of Sooloos hardware cost less than any of the UnitiSystem products?

I said mostly... Sonos, Yamaha and Samsung all produce iOS apps. All for kit less than UnitiSystem components. Yes I know about economies of scale.

quote:

As for Sonos, they also make their own, paid-for touchscreen remote.

And also promote using a single Zone Player with iPod Touch as an entry level system. And dealers will suggest iPod plus software app is better than Sonos touch screen.

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Is it the economy of scale that is so elusive in the wisdom of your post?

Only Naim know the per unit cost of the app, profit on the Uniti etc. Maybe you're actually selling something which cost equivilent of £100 per sale for £25. Maybe it only cost £5 per unit to develope. I understand the bulk cost of something like UnitiQute is developement not component cost or profit. I've argued elsewhere (other forums) the same when people question why a Nait 5i cost so much more than a Marantz PM6003 for example - it's not about component cost or Naim's greed.

Maybe, as Connon said, we'd be better if no app was free, but Naim need to acknowledge that their competitors are free and so will be compared this way.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by connon price:
The app is not required to run the machine. It is a premium way to interface for many. Would it similarly vex you to see a marketing image with a uniti qute plugged in with a Powerline? An option shown to maximize a product with no standard plug anywhere in sight? Probably not.

Correct it's not required. However (if you use UPnP) would you really expect a good user experience scrolling through a list of 100s of artists or 1000s of CDs on a 4-line display on a 2" (?) screen mounted in a rack. Some form of control is needed on a larger, closer to user / handheld display is needed. So it's £25 nStream app; or a third party alternative for between £5 (PlugPlayer) and £50 (SongBook) on iPhone handheld or various free or paid for control points on a laptop, etc.

Marketing pictures / advertising can be misleading (not just Naim). Another recent HiFi advert I have issue with is Chord's Mugul PC photographed with iPad. Which has nothing to do with the Mogul as it's sold.

As I say this is my PoV and it may be I'm the only one with it.

Eloise

quote:

However (if you use UPnP) would you really expect a good user experience scrolling through a list of 100s of artists or 1000s of CDs on a 4-line display on a 2" (?) screen mounted in a rack. Some form of control is needed on a larger, closer to user / handheld display is needed.

Provided you have set this up correctly within the UPnP settings on the UnitiServe, one can enable split indexing based on letter vs number of entries.

I agree with you that a two-line display option would be great - but it's not the non-starter you imply it is.

I agree with Eloise 100% about the Uniti's 2" display when it comes to UPnP usage.

I bought the Uniti for it's UPnP functionality and my decision to purchase was heavily influenced by my dealer's description of the "coming soon" iPhone App to control the unit. Mine is rack mounted and from my listening position 10 feet away, the display is essentially useless when it comes to scrolling through my FLAC collection. My vision is perfect. The display is simply too small for the application.

In my opinion, a remote i.e. The iPhone App is essential for a good user experience.

So what have you used to date? (After all, PlugPlayer and Songbook are paid apps....)

On the other hand, had Naim had included an iPod touch (pre-loaded) in the box, some would have complained that one needed to buy a wireless access point to make it work - or, that one could only use the app on the supplied device (Naim could have charged for additional instances).

In the end, the best option is to charge for the app, allow users to put it on as many devices as the license agreement permits, and keep it separate from the actual purchase cost of the unit - as my guess is that there will likely be quite a few multiple-unit installations (averaging the cost across a few units to reduce the per-unit cost).

@ David: was your question directed at me regarding which apps I've used to date?

Naim should have a special section on their website ("Downloading") so that new firmware is made available to all. I am sure a USB stick can be used to store the download? Or is there a connectore behind which allows you to do this without too much trouble?

There is an upcoming release called SongBook Naim that will support both the HDX and Uniti, this will be called SongBook Naim.

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Originally posted by drfthomas:
There is an upcoming release called SongBook Naim that will support both the HDX and Uniti, this will be called SongBook Naim.

Wow, it is $49 plus!

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
So what have you used to date? (After all, PlugPlayer and Songbook are paid apps....)

On the other hand, had Naim had included an iPod touch (pre-loaded) in the box, some would have complained that one needed to buy a wireless access point to make it work - or, that one could only use the app on the supplied device (Naim could have charged for additional instances).

In the end, the best option is to charge for the app, allow users to put it on as many devices as the license agreement permits, and keep it separate from the actual purchase cost of the unit - as my guess is that there will likely be quite a few multiple-unit installations (averaging the cost across a few units to reduce the per-unit cost).

________________________________________________________________________________________________

I could not agree more with what you say.

If Naim tried to force me to pay for an ipod and software I would not be buying a Qute. I dislike Apple as much as some others dislike PC's and their software providers.

I could be complaining that I have already had to pay a premium for the Qute because it has some sort of licencing from Apple,for functionallity I will never use. Not only that, I have had to suffer a delay in receiving one (Qute) because Apple have made alterations that Naim have had to act on before release.

I could, but I am not. Naim like others design, develop and offer for sale a product which they think will appeal to the widest possible purchaser. Unfortunately, (for me) they have built in ipod connectivity, but even I reluctantly have to admit there are a lot of ipods out there. I have decided that I can live with that, but I will not pay a penny more for anything Apple.

Unless....now I rather fancy a nice little laptop, 13" screen would do. Oh, and with one of those nice touchscreens.......Is anyone listening?

Peter

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13" screen would do. Oh, and with one of those nice touchscreens.......Is anyone listening

iPad???

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Originally posted by pcstockton:

quote:

13" screen would do. Oh, and with one of those nice touchscreens.......Is anyone listening

iPad???

Please, wash your mouth out Sir!

Kind regards
Peter

sure, it is a bit expensive but it works fine with the larger screen on the iPad. it is also a bit buggy.

I think the Apple products complement tha Naims branding very nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by naimUnT:

quote:

Originally posted by drfthomas:
There is an upcoming release called SongBook Naim that will support both the HDX and Uniti, this will be called SongBook Naim.

Wow, it is $49 plus!

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If Naim tried to force me to pay for an ipod and software I would not be buying a Qute. I dislike Apple as much as some others dislike PC's and their software providers.

Let me guess–you're a Psion-type of guy. Or prefer a Creative Labs MP3 player.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

quote:

If Naim tried to force me to pay for an ipod and software I would not be buying a Qute. I dislike Apple as much as some others dislike PC's and their software providers.

Let me guess–you're a Psion-type of guy. Or prefer a Creative Labs MP3 player.

Hey be careful what you're implying here - Psion were well ahead of their time...

Look at the Psion 7 / Netbook and a modern Netbook!
And modern iPhones / iPad / Android Phones etc all run on ARM processors - just like the Psion 5 onwards did!
And TomTom grew out of PalmTech; ex-Psion employees who left to develop navigation/mapping software.
Oh and (IIRC) Psion have some early patents for portable digital music devices.

Really great article on Psion published a few years ago on The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...06/26/psion_special/

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If Naim tried to force me to pay for an ipod and software I would not be buying a Qute. I dislike Apple as much as some others dislike PC's and their software providers.

Problem for me is the use of Windoze in some Naim products - I really wish Naim would rethink this and move to open source code and I'd be on the waiting list for some of these new products, but after due consideration I just can't buy anything that I know uses code from the dark side.

The interface to the iPod is fine by me - my car has an iPod interface too. However, Apple has annoyed me too with its disregard for G5 users (not as bad as the dark side, but not great); still I was used to the Commodore so lack of support for last week's product is what I've grown to expect.

If only computer companies offered the level of support Naim does.

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If only computer companies offered the level of support Naim does.

FULLY agreed. The smaller the company, the better the support. Go roll around on Hydrogen Audio and see the lengths devs will go supporting a free component/software.

-Patrick

Hi David & Eloise _ Yes I remember the Psion and would have liked one many years ago. But no, I have an Arcos, better screen and I can load my Flac files straight on.

ROTF _ Hello, I fully understand you are in effect in the opposite position to me. I can't say I have ever had a serious problem with Windows; niggles certainly, but overall OK. I am not qualified to comment on the open source argument, I know it seems to work for Linn but I'm not sure that means windows won't work for Naim.
Commodore - we had one of those, great fun until the BBC came along and started to move us towards the machines we use today.

I had better say it before someone else does, I am really not that technical a person. I used to be far more interested in that side of things until I discovered and then invested in Naim products. Since that time we have not felt the need to look/listen elsewhere. I hope and trust that the Qute won't alter that position.

I would agree with both you and Patrick regarding Naims service/support. I would go further and say that they have been the best company I have ever dealt with from the fist time I walked into Salt Lane to just a few months ago when I rang to enquire about the Qute. They listened to my requirements and offered a solution in barely 5 minutes.

Best regards to you all
Peter

quote:

Commodore - we had one of those, great fun until the BBC came along and started to move us towards the machines we use today.

Hi Peter

Commodore had a project called Lorraine for which most work was done in Bristol and Cambridge (I think Daphne, Paula and Angus chips were American, but the software was all UK designed and built) - it finally materialised as the most advanced home computer yet made: the Amiga. So far ahead of the game that the others have only just began to catch up - Metacomco designed the Intuition graphical user interface to run in 64k (for Microsofties reading that's 64 Kilobytes of RAM, not 64 Gigabytes). Amiga had a proper multi-tasking operating system when other desktop computers only dreamed of such (Applites remember Conflict Catcher).

The BBC B that you mention was a stunning machine - I loved its plug in ROMs. Then Acorn launched the mighty Archimedes - superb architecture and RiscOS, which was a decent OS, but no match for AmigaOS (a.k.a Cambridge TripOS). That said I wish I had a BBC Archimedes - bring back Ian McNaught-Davis



So Commodore had the best product by a country mile, but non-existent customer service. I once asked if I could trade my C64 for an Amiga monitor and was told - No, what would they do with a load of rubbishy old monitors. However, they did fund the manufacture of a classic and I'm using one now (A1200)

The latest Amiga is due out next year (X1000) and will have a 1.8GHz PowerPC Varisys motherboard made in High Wycombe with Zorro slots (like superior PCI). My interest is the Xmos co-processor (Xena), a descendant of the Inmos transputer, manufactured in Bristol. Xena, is half Field-Programmable Gate Array, half micro-controller and you control hardware plugged into the Zorro slot with some simple C code. It should outperform current desktop computers with their Intels inside.New Amiga will probably never happen; the web site has gone too quiet.

Meanwhile, I'm using my Apples to send musical bits to my nice Naim DAC - that it sounds so good is down to the hiFace and Naim DAC. I'm sure a PC could sound just as good if it were running the right Linux software. In fact Windows embedded systems sound fine when the guys from Naim work their magic. However, those Apple guys do write great software even if it does need an excessive amount of RAM.

All the best, Rotf