András Schiff Plays Beethoven

You hint at the possibility that Schiff doesn't actually like Beethoven, and I think you may be right! He's given the composer a peripheral role in his repertoire over the years, and I suspect he finds him "bombastic" - as he does Liszt.

It's a personality thing. I know he's only recently come to like the Waldstein sonata (he admits he never used to like it - more "bombast"?) and I gather his performances of the Hammerklavier are a flop. I'm not surprised!

I think he just has a problem with scores that contain more than one "ff" marking. His Schubert playing completely misses the point, to my ears.

That said, his Bach and Haydn are quite something. He's ultimately a highly musical pianist, but the colossal, radical works in the repertoire just seem to irk him.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
You hint at the possibility that Schiff doesn't actually like Beethoven, and I think you may be right! He's given the composer a peripheral role in his repertoire over the years, and I suspect he finds him "bombastic" - as he does Liszt.

Interesting theory. The same reason why most of Glenn Goulds Beethoven sonata recordings are so horrible. But a question remains to be answered : Why do they record the music, when they don´t like it?

pe-zulu

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu:
But a question remains to be answered : Why do they record the music, when they don´t like it?

pe-zulu

In order to carve out their place in history... and to make money.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu:
But a question remains to be answered : Why do they record the music, when they don´t like it?

pe-zulu

In order to carve out their place in history... and to make money.

EW

But any sensible consideration will tell that the result will become the opposite, when an artist try to interprete music he doesn´t like.

quote:

Interesting theory. The same reason why most of Glenn Goulds Beethoven sonata recordings are so horrible. But a question remains to be answered : Why do they record the music, when they don´t like it?

If true, why are Gould's recordings of the Mozart pianos sonatas even worse than his Beethoven.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Waugh:

quote:

Interesting theory. The same reason why most of Glenn Goulds Beethoven sonata recordings are so horrible. But a question remains to be answered : Why do they record the music, when they don´t like it?

If true, why are Gould's recordings of the Mozart pianos sonatas even worse than his Beethoven.

Because as we all know, all Gould wanted to do in "interpreting" a piece was make it sound as dissimilar as possible to everyone else's approach. As Brendel as said, originality should be the OUTCOME of an effort, not the input.

EW

I read this with dismay...

Mr Schiff was a apianist I hoped one day would mature into a Master. I thought that might even be when he approached Beethoven.

As to his Bach it is not noteworthy in my view beyond being technically very good. It is so dry musically. And that is not simply a question of playing the notes. But it never really sings or catches fire in the way Edwyn Fischer for example or JM Pires in the same music, and also on the piano, seem to be performing as the result of some inner fire that compels it to be so, rather than a theoretically and musicalogically accurate reproduction of all that is in the score and frankly absolutely nothing seen beyond the notes, in terms of an emotional or even much of a phylosophical response. I had a certain amount of Bach played by Schiff, and it seems to me he never got over the stylistic problems posed by using the piano forte, let alone became an inviting, driven, or even interesting performer.

That is all subjective I know and I can't be bothered to argue it, but performances of that sort are rightly called dull and get the greatests works a reputation, not deserved.

Fredrik

He's never quite turned into the great he could have been that's for sure. I can't agree about his Bach, but in all too many other sections of the repertoire he seems a bit dull and uninspired these days.

EW

Dear EW,

What Todd has described above is exactly what I find in the Bach. Stiffness, false (mannered and inapropriate to the logic and flow of the music) rubato, and almost always a reasonable tempo. As if he knows what it should "sound" like, but absloute no idea how it should "go!" As I say, try Fischer or Pires to hear great Bach playing on the piano. Schiff seems to be totally confused about what the music IS about. When I see Todd state that he has no idea how Beethoven goes, I then see that he got his Bach and Haydn right, all I can do is say that IMO he certainly only has half an idea how Bach goes, and entirely misses the point of the music, with its singing lines and natural, logical flow. There are no tricks in Bach, just huge inspiration, and a phenomenal mind weaving the seemingly impossible together in ways that are not merely clever or mechanical, but deepling moving on the human emotional level. It is the most emotive music before the late romantics, but Schiff plays with it like a child who hates dumplings, pushing it about as it if it has gone cold hours before. The result is at best congealed and certainly at worst horrible.

Fredrik

Dear EW,

I have broken my own rule on the subject of JSB on the pianoforte. It has to be very special to work, let alone work as well as it would on the instrument "klavier" (the terms cover a fairly small range, even if it is not always clear in everycase which Bach had in mind) for which the music was written to be played on. Result is that I get trenchant.

If you like Schiff playing Bach on the piano, then please do go on enjoying it!

But it amuses me (NOT) to see Beethoven playing described above, but then it stated (by another poster, I think) that the Bach and Haydn are OK. I love Bach as number one composer! And Haydn as number two!! So you see that according to normal values I am quite mad. But I care that people are not put off these two Masters by performances like those of this man.

So, Dear Friends, and particularly EW, as it to you I addressed this, please accept my apology. I must refrain from any comment about Bach playing on the pianoforte, except by Fischer Nicholeaeva, Pires, and a very very few others. otherwise it seems all wrong from alsorts of musical points.

Maybe I should start a Thread on why?

Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik H:
Maybe I should start a Thread on why?
Fredrik

Yes, I should like to see your thoughts about this issue.

BTW this thread is about Schiff, and as his Beethoven playing and Bach playing seem to suffer from the same shortcomings, your words here are perfect in topic.

In the liner notes “interview” for the second volume of the LvB sonatas, András Schiff states that the Op 2 sonatas, along with the Hammerklavier, are the most difficult works for him in terms of technical requirements and memorization. Interesting, I thought. Maybe that’s why I was somewhat disappointed in the first installment in his cycle. The first few sonatas just ain’t his thing. Anyway, I figured I should give the second installment a listen. Another batch of four sonatas is on tap, specifically the Op 10 sonatas and the Pathetique. Should make for some potentially interesting listening, I figured.

It makes for more than that. From the very first bars, this disc contains some decidedly unique Beethoven playing, especially in the Op 10 works. The first Op 10 sonata displays one trait that reappears throughout: the rising arpeggios that open the work start a bit slowly then speed up. Slow then fast. That’s the trick. Anyway, the second run through is faster overall. Slow than fast again. He uses this device so much that one will either find it an annoying mannerism or an intriguing interpretive device. I fall into the latter category. But that’s because there’s more than that. Schiff’s playing is varied slightly in tone, but much more in dynamics, and, especially, in tempo. He’s constantly playing things differently. The sound is a bit bright (I’m guessing he uses a Bösendorfer for the opener), and occasionally some of the left hand playing – which is just as varied as the right – is a bit muddied. While his focus on minute details can come close to detracting from the big picture, he keeps all together well enough and maintains nice forward drive. The Adagio molto offers something else. The whole movement has a slow-ish overall pulse, but it benefits from Schiff’s delectable low volume playing. His piano and pianissimo playing contains myriad subdivisions, and his constant toying with tempo adds a sense of “what’s he gonna do next?” suspense, if you will. He also deploys pauses subtly and effectively. At times the movement sounds static, but he manages to maintain tension. And he also makes the movement sound broader in expressive scope than may be strictly proper in early Beethoven. To end the piece, Schiff adopts a faster overall tempo for the Prestissimo, but he uses that slow-fast thing again. He also very prominently deploys something else he relies on a lot – unique accenting. Individual notes or portions of larger figures will be accented in a unique way. Overall, there is a lot to take in. This is a rethought version of the work.

The second sonata offers more of the same, though in a more lighthearted way. The Allegro sounds slow(-ish) and definitely soft at the open, but quickly Schiff picks things up a bit – but not a huge amount – and again deploys all the tricks noted above. At times it almost sounds precious – perhaps it even does – but somehow Schiff makes all his innumerable little touches work. The piece still manages to flow pretty well, too. Somewhat ironically, the Allegretto is comparatively tauter and tenser – though it’s not really intense – and sounds sober and serious. Yet it, too, works. The Presto (with repeat, thankfully) has that slow-fast thing, but Schiff also manages to stretch out the opening material just a little bit. There’s forward drive to the playing, and everything sounds appropriately fun, and when Schiff takes the repeat, he plays it a little bit faster and a little bit stronger, with some nice, weighty left-hand playing. This little work is definitely filled to the brim with Schiff’s ideas.

But it is the third sonata that overflows with ideas. Everything in this work sounds as though Schiff spent long days or weeks (or longer!) reconsidering the music to come up with a fresh way to play it. Not that one can tell in the opening bars. Schiff plays it straight, with a conventional tempo and decent strength and drive. But he quickly starts peppering the playing with all manner of personal touches. Most prominent and definitely unique among them is how he splits the first four notes in a repeated figure so that the first two ascend quickly then, after a miniscule pause, the second two descend quickly before the rest of the figure is played. At first I thought he may have rushed the passage, but then when the figure returns, so does the device. One sort of listens in half disbelief. How dare Schiff do that! This is Beethoven! What does he think he’s doing? Well, I like it! Fresh thinking and fresh playing. The Largo, well, it too offers some new ideas. It starts out slow and insistent and sounds almost monotone for a while. Then the accenting and rubato and dynamic changes appear – all over the place – and the piece comes to life. It’s not intense, it’s not tragic. But Schiff does bring an almost operatic theatricality to the movement. Some may find it contrived, and it can’t really be described as “heartfelt,” but it sure is captivating. The brief Menuetto sounds relaxed and warm and acts as a stylistic warm-up to the concluding Rondo. Yes, it’s a bit on the soft side, and it starts off a bit slow, then it turns quick and soft, and it stays that way. Schiff interrupts this relaxed sound with the occasional bass chord out of nowhere, and there is much jiggery-pokery to be heard throughout. If the preceding description seems a bit out of line for this sonata, it is because this recording is not really conventional. It’s full o’ personal touches and yet it all works.

I admit that I didn’t have especially high expectations for the Pathetique. This isn’t really Schiff’s kind of music. While I can’t report that his version makes my short-list of favorites, I can say that it greatly surpassed my expectations. Schiff opens the Grave with strongly played but not pulverizing chords. He makes it sound quite dramatic, too. Then he plays the Allegro molto e con brio swiftly, with a bright, cutting treble helping to ratchet up the intensity, though he maintains a “classical” demeanor. Then he repeats the Grave in the exposition repeat. Few pianists have recorded the work this way, and no doubt many people don’t want to have the forward momentum interrupted by the slower theme, but it actually works well here. That’s because Schiff plays the Grave a bit differently: it’s faster and more intense. The second run through the Allegro is nimbler and even more dramatic. The subsequent truncated reappearances of the Grave theme are likewise more dramatic than the initial one, or at least different enough to make one initially think so, and he brings the movement to a solid close. The Adagio opens and closes with steady, lovely, lyrical, and subdued playing, and has a slightly sharper, spikier middle section. The ending Rondo opens somewhat softly, and the overall mien of the movement is a bit softer than normal, but Schiff’s dexterous playing excites in places, and he knows just when to throw in a heavy, pointed chord for effect. And he knows to end the work in a strong, energetic fashion, too.

There is no doubt that this volume is much better than the first volume in the cycle. This disc is distinctive and Schiff’s interpretation is very interventionist. In some ways I can compare Schiff’s playing to Eric Heidsieck’s and Anton Kuerti’s. All three offer individual – hell, idiosyncratic – takes on these pieces. Whether or not one likes the playing will come down to taste and expectations. I greatly enjoy Heidsieck and very strongly dislike Kuerti, but there’s no confusing either pianist’s playing with anyone else’s. Much the same goes for Schiff. I love it. (And a second, “non-analytical” listening session only increased my fondness for the disc.) Others may very well hate it. I’d be surprised if anyone could truthfully say they’ve heard anything quite like it.


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I heard Schiff not too long ago in recital play the Waldstein. Kinda low keyed, soft focus performance I thought. No real different interpretation from the norm, just rather low key. Not bad, not great was my reaction. Perhaps the fact he stopped in the middle of the first movement to chastise the audience for coughing put me off, though I must say it did work and the audience was quiet for the rest of the recital. Like Todd, I do enjoy the recent cello sonata recordings---the man can play, even if he does strike one as a prima donna (nothing very unusual in the insular world of classical music, that's for sure---can you imagine if some of these folks actually had to work for a living---ok,ok, I'll stop).