DACs

you've gotta demo. I bought my B-ford unheard b/c it was $185 including shipping.

Depends on your needs and what your willing to spend. Just shipped a Music Hall for eval to an old customer on the east coast to compare to his friends DA-10 and both preferred the MH which is significantly cheaper. That for cheap or wait a bit for the Naim DAC and then take it the MH and something like a Weiss home to compare. Lots of sites with comparisons but like with those that disagree with my evaluations other will disagree with theirs. You really just need to try these yourself or find some one that you tend to agree with and trust. The former is always best.

The problem with overall consensus reviews is what is taken for granted as in interface, player, files, and method of playback/listening and with what gear. It may not get the best(or worst) from any particular DAC. You really need to try it yourself. For instance, a few of us in the trade have harped on Itunes and interfaces with much resistance yet now we see many members here finding better ways to play files and going away from direct tos out. Too many variables to know what's happening in every setup. That includes the comparison my customer made that I referred to earlier whether I agree or not. I recommend very strongly to at least wait and see what Naim have concocted with their DAC as it may put many of these variables into a much smaller window with the way they're addressing jitter etc.

I think the 2 DACs that are often found to be favored in these type of reviews are the Berkley and Weiss. I would put a Nagra LB with them and the Nagra VI as best I've heard so far when used as a DAC. I don't own the Nagra as I won't move on a primary DAC for home until I hear the Naim which is right around the corner.

Ok I see your point js and PC. I'll hold off for till new year.

This is similar to the flat screen TVs, I waited about 4 years and feel my Samsung now is great and teh HDMI cable for DVD is much better and easier to install. One friend who bought 4 years ago has to repair his TV and the Samsung DVD is now sadly not connecting to his new Samsung TV because it only has RCA jacks. I told him to get the new DVD player that connects with Netflix thru wifi.

He's a technophobe and gets crazy thinking it's obsolete or needs a new cable. I had to calm him down the night he got the TV, at least I got the stations to work, but 2 other people had to tell him to get a new DVD player before he believed me.

We'll be showing the DAC with 555PS and HDX at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, in the same room as the CD555 on the new S-600 loudspeaker on NAC552/NAP500 amplification.

Now that's a demonstration that will be well worth doing....

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
We'll be showing the DAC with 555PS and HDX at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, in the same room as the CD555 on the new S-600 loudspeaker on NAC552/NAP500 amplification.

Now that's a demonstration that will be well worth doing....

No computer as source? If not than it seems like preaching to the converted. Non Naimees would want to see what the DAC can do with other sources/streamers (computers/squeezebox/transporters etc. etc.). I assume you would also want sales to "new folk" too.

Gregg

Gregg

Thats true, a lot of potential customers might be interested in using their PC/Mac with the Naim DAC!

I'm sure if they like what they hear, they'll make an appointment to do a full demo at a dealers with the PC/Mac.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
I'm sure if they like what they hear, they'll make an appointment to do a full demo at a dealers with the PC/Mac.

Yes but - Still does not answer the question as to why the DAC has not/won't/can't be demoed with a Mac/PC. I am planning on attending the recap session/demo at my dealer this coming November and sure hope the DAC will be demoed with a Mac/PC - otherwise what is the point - I am not planning on downgrading to a new CDX2 - or purchasing a HDX. None of my friends are planning on it either.

Gregg

Perhaps it is not the best end of 2000 GBP better than a 100 GBP sound card?

No reason to set the two side by side then?

ATb from George

Or perhaps it is, but Naim's fear is that comparisons between computer and <insert-expensive-naim-source-here> via the DAC will prove to be fairly even, curtailing cd-player and hdx sales faster than the business model would like.

My (uninformed) guess is that they're walking a fine marketing line--for the dac to sell really well, it must sound terrific with any digital source. But to maintain revenue streams from new cd-players and the hdx in the face of a threat from their own new product, they are attempting to position the dac as a complement to other naim products, not a replacement for them.

But Naim's problem is people like me--I want a good DAC to do away with all digital sources except a computer.

There was a threadon 'computer audiophile' which sort of suggested that maybe the design of the buffer/clocking wasn't that well thought out.
Something about Naim have chosen a fixed number of frquencies which never perfectly match the frquency of the incoming data?
I can probably find the piece if anyone is interested.

C'mon this has nothing to do with fear.

The DAC does serve several purposes and as such has a broader market appeal than if it were designed as a stand alone device.

If reports are true then Naim did a good job with the development of the DAC as a stand alone device and as an upgrade for the new line of CDPs and the HDX. Whether the PC/Mac/DAC comes close to CDP is not the issue. There are those who want nothing more than a computer ripped files and a DAC and others who want to continue to use CDs, but have upgradeability of the player and the opportunity to play files whether hi-res or not.

It's all about options and obviously performance.

Each person will need to demo the device alone or in combination with other devices such as CDP and decide what works best for them and people will buy accordingly.

While there will certainly be those that demo and are of the opinion that the Mac/PC/DAC is equal to or better than the new CDPs etc... there will be others who disagree and I'm sure that Naim falls on the side of the CDP(HDX)/DAC outperforming the computer/dac combination, but to each his/her own.

How could an HDX/DAC outperform a Mac/DAC if, in both cases, the Sync light comes on? Isn't that the whole paradigm shifting point of the DAC - that it is uninfluenced by jitter in the source, as long as it is low enough to get sync?

Dealers should have the guts to demonstrate the thing with a range of viable sources. If it doesn't sound the same across a range of sources that can get Sync, then it is broken.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
How could an HDX/DAC outperform a Mac/DAC if, in both cases, the Sync light comes on? Isn't that the whole paradigm shifting point of the DAC - that it is uninfluenced by jitter in the source, as long as it is low enough to get sync?

Dealers should have the guts to demonstrate the thing with a range of viable sources. If it doesn't sound the same across a range of sources that can get Sync, then it is broken.

Could not disagree more. There are more interplay of factors then you are giving credit for as has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

Sorry if I'm not familiar with these 'factors'. I am puzzled. Could you enlighten me and mention, say, three other factors that would be relevant? I'll accept (somewhat surprisedly) that optical connection might be necessary - but, apart from that, what is there?

Noise and bandwidth come to mind. Noise will be sampled and a square should still give a slightly better result than a not so square wave. In these cases, the 8 (or 16 etc.) sample points of an oversampled bit may not be exactly the same with some (though less than usual) effect. The sync light means the original clock is recognized and the appropriate oversample clock can be chosen without interpolation. How much source makes a difference remains to be seen and the theory would indicate the differences to be noticably less than in the past. I still wouldn't assume none and I think most dealers are perfectly willing to demonstrate multiple sources as we do in our shop including 'bring what you got'. In fact, we encourage it.

Naim is paying for a room to show Naim bits, Let them and do your important dems at a dealer or in your home. Seems rather obvious.

What do you mean 'bandwidth'. If the sync light is on the DAC must be getting all the data-stream and an adequate clock. There are no more bits to be got. It isn't analogue! What more bandwidth in what is there to be had?

What do you mean 'noise'? RF? The Naim white paper says "The Naim DAC’s high-speed DSP (digital signal processor) front-end is electrically isolated from its high-resolution DAC and analogue circuits. Also, the two sections are run from separate power supplies. Together these measures significantly reduce the digtal RF noise which could affect the analogue stage."

So, if RF gets through a circuit that is "electrially isolated" by design, is it not broken?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
So, if RF gets through a circuit that is "electrially isolated" by design, is it not broken?

You have a strange definition of "broken"....why not go in and have a listen when it's available?

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
There was a threadon 'computer audiophile' which sort of suggested that maybe the design of the buffer/clocking wasn't that well thought out.
Something about Naim have chosen a fixed number of frquencies which never perfectly match the frquency of the incoming data?
I can probably find the piece if anyone is interested.

I am as It seems ill informed. Curious to see who wrote the post and what was actually said. It either will be an exact multiple of one of the 10 clocks (better)or it will be handled as others do. With 10 clocks, it wont get caught out.

Jay, I will certainly go in and have a listen when it is available. And if it sounds different with two sources that can get Sync, then I won't buy it.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Jay, I will certainly go in and have a listen when it is available. And if it sounds different with two sources that can get Sync, then I won't buy it.

That personally seems a bit silly to me if you liked what it sounded like and were prepared to spend the money. What DAC would actually fit your criteria?

Could you not also argue that if upstream components didn't sound different then what you were listening through wasn't transparent?

And why not apply that criteria to other components? Surely they are all impacted by system "synergy" to some extend or other?

regards
Jay

Likesmusic,

Are you asking for the Naim DAC to be perfect in every way? Without any limiting factors? No compromises in any way? Infallible? THE GOD DAC?

if not it is broken huh?

There are hundreds of factors involved in the process. If it is not the same every single time given thousands of potential combinations it is not working correctly as you see it?

Forget the stupid sync light, read some quantum theory, and go have a listen to it when it is out.

Naim says they have:
"significantly reduced digital RF noise",

you translate into

"So, if RF gets through a circuit that is "electrially isolated" by design, is it not broken"

To answer your question, NO.

Imagine these scenarios my friend. All with same disc, pre, amp, speakers, and cables.

A CDP is playing a CD and runs into a few errors it cannot correct. That data goes into to the Naim DAC. You hear it.

An ungrounded cheap DVD/CDP is playing a CD encounters many non-correctable erros and it outputs in digi coax. To The Naim DAC, you then hear it.

Then you play the same song from a PC without errors but through ASIO drivers into an M-Audio Transit then into The Naim DAC. You hear it.

Every time the sync light was on. Is it completely out of the question that you might hear a difference between the two?

-patrick

Isn't it the case that an uncorrected error typically results in a click? In any case, aren't such errors rare, unless the cd is badly damaged? Do you think that NAIM CDPs are incapable of correcting errors that a modest pc running dppoweramp and verifying a rip is bit perfect can?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
What do you mean 'bandwidth'. If the sync light is on the DAC must be getting all the data-stream and an adequate clock. There are no more bits to be got. It isn't analogue! What more bandwidth in what is there to be had?

What do you mean 'noise'? RF? The Naim white paper says "The Naim DAC’s high-speed DSP (digital signal processor) front-end is electrically isolated from its high-resolution DAC and analogue circuits. Also, the two sections are run from separate power supplies. Together these measures significantly reduce the digtal RF noise which could affect the analogue stage."

So, if RF gets through a circuit that is "electrially isolated" by design, is it not broken?

If you don't want an answer then don't ask. I explained the bandwidth thing which may also not have much if any effect and noise is just that. I understand wanting simple solutions but there's always more to it whether you want it that way or not. People have already commented that the DAC sounded better on the end of an HDX than an Ipod and it wasn't broken. Whether that's actually the case, I'll reserve for an actual audition but there's always been much more to this than bits.

I really don't get the intent of not buying it if it doesn't sound the same from different sources. If it's always better than other things, you still wouldn't consider it?

Perhaps you'll be fortunate enough to hear it on a setup that's mucked up enough for the proper result.

Dear John,

I have just read through the later posts here.

I guess you think I am a heathen in that I can happily enjoy music from iTunes in the analogue output from a PC, and most amazingly find even more enjoyment in the soundcard output of a 12 inch Dell lappy, which is several years younger than my PC.

The lappy, especially, is similar to a good live VHF broadcast comapred to a CD. Very listenable, very detailed and nothing forced or brought unduly foreward. I am certain it would be a horror to a Hifi enthusiast, but it misses nothing essential in the music - at least in the relaying of the possible in the concert hall setting - for me.

Let me say it in a slightly different way. The difference between what I have playing iTunes and the very best digital replay systems [eg CD 555] is far, far less different in quality that the difference between different recordings of the same music.

In other words it is easy to enjoy. Of course there are some fairly terrible recordings that major on audiophilia rather than music [think quite a lot but not all Decca and RCA] - fortunately they did not sign the great classical performers in the main.

What I mean is the recordings of EMI, Philips, Suprafon, Hungaraton, Polski Nagrania, and so-forth for recordings of the greatest musicians in acceptable and enjoyable quality of reproduction.

ATB from George